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Emne: Regular minor formulas changes? |
22 svar
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#1 Skrevet Apr 20 2018, 14:09:13
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*Inspired by Jasper Coosemans and others posts in "possible bugs" thread*
Should the game formulas change slightly but in a regular way? Or should they stay the same forever? If yes, which formulas? Setup? Wear? Fuel consumption? Tyres range? Track characteristics? How often and how much?
Situation:
There are many easy to google "ready-2-drive" tools are available, killing the idea of the learning curve for new managers. Huge databases allow to predict a very good initial setup, wingsplit, expected car wear, tyres range and fuel usage, without having a single race under the belt. Managers and even teams willing to work on their own data to find the formulas, are in a worse situation than a new manager with basic googling skills, which may lead them either to switch to the online tools, either to quit.
My idea:
We cannot eliminate the tools, but we can make them a little less useful*, by changing some formulas and base values from time to time. Minor changes should be implemented regularly, so that the previously collected data could still be useful as a reference data, but not as the optimal one. Those should force all the managers to work more on the data, in order to stay competitive. The changes should be announced, but without going too far into the details**
Pros:
Change in favor of the managers and teams willing to learn and grow.
Cons:
Indeed, finding the precise formulas by new managers without any data (and not willing to use google) will be more difficult ***
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* The tools like GO, that just collect data to give the manager the reference values won't suffer much. On opposite, online tools (based on huge databases searches) and excel sheets (widely spread between teams, based on formulas and base values), will.
**i.e: the new fuel component has been invented, so you can expect a bit different fuel consumption from now, etc.
*** But, let's be honest, how many of them will have a patience to FOBY everything from the very beginning and alone? Either they will find quickly a good team, either use one of the existing already tools, either leave the game, because FOBYing alone all the aspects of the game is impossible, even with no change to formulas.
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#2 Skrevet Apr 20 2018, 14:19:25
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forgive me if i'm wrong here but wont that hinder what your trying to help?
a huge harvesting database will figure out the new formulas much quicker and far more accurately than a team of 10 people, meaning your disadvantage just hits harder and over and over!
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For the record, I've never thought minor formula changes would do any good. I was talking about major changes i.e. a complete overhaul of a formula. Not changing a few coefficients, but changing a sum into a product, or a product into an exponential relation etc.
What Jukka said is completely in line with how I see it:
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ April 20th 2018,12:31:31 )
I think small changes would just make fobying more difficult for those that haven't figured out yet, while those who have an accurateish own old formula, would rather quickly adapt to the new one. However, if there would be a totally new formula which would have rather little to do with the old, it would be more equal.
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#4 Skrevet Apr 20 2018, 14:26:48
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Early.
A new game engine is more important. (... lot of time. (?))
I think.
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#5 Skrevet Apr 20 2018, 14:27:27
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Quote ( Kieran Taylor @ April 20th 2018,14:19:25 ) orgive me if i'm wrong here but wont that hinder what your trying to help?
a huge harvesting database will figure out the new formulas much quicker and far more accurately than a team of 10 people, meaning your disadvantage just hits harder and over and over!
I think you overestimate the database tools. You just send a query and get historical results closest to your query. So, as the database will be loaded with inaccurate data (because of change of the formulas), you will get inaccurate results.
And a team that collects data and works out formulas will have bigger chances to spot the differences.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 20th 2018,14:22:30 ) For the record, I've never though minor formula changes would do any good.
That's why I used "inspired" word ;-)
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 20th 2018,14:22:30 ) I was talking about major changes i.e. a complete overhaul of a formula. Not changing a few coefficients, but changing a sum into a product, or a product into an exponential relation etc.
It would make online tools completely unusable. And I just think they should be weakened, not killed, because too many managers are using them. Cutting them the access could make them leave the game.
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Seems like we already have some minor formulae changes this season. Let's see how it works out?
P.S. I suspect all the serious teams use the databases too to have more data to work with.
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#8 Skrevet Apr 20 2018, 14:45:57
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,14:27:27 ) Quote
I think you overestimate the database tools. You just send a query and get historical results closest to your query. So, as the database will be loaded with inaccurate data (because of change of the formulas), you will get inaccurate results.
And a team that collects data and works out formulas will have bigger chances to spot the differences.
maybe so, i'll be first to admit i'm not that knowledgeable on this.
but i'm a lot more familiar with market forces, demand and profit so maybe the power of subscription fees would counter act this, it would be in the interests of sites to update there formular using the latest race data collecting hundreds at a time compared to a teams 10!
although i don't know the profit margins and maintenance of such an operation i can imagine the person who would make such a tool from scratch for a certain fee would be willing to update it to new data.
i would imagine the person who made these sites understands the process and would be quick to tweak any small change to coefficients may even play the game and have a GPRO team to help
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#9 Skrevet Apr 20 2018, 14:56:03
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Quote ( Kieran Taylor @ April 20th 2018,14:45:57 ) ut i'm a lot more familiar with market forces, demand and profit so maybe the power of subscription fees would counter act this, it would be in the interests of sites to update there formular using the latest race data collecting hundreds at a time compared to a teams 10!
although i don't know the profit margins and maintenance of such an operation i can imagine the person who would make such a tool from scratch for a certain fee would be willing to update it to new data.
i would imagine the person who made these sites understands the process and would be quick to tweak any small change to coefficients may even play the game and have a GPRO team to help
I have no idea who is standing behind those pages, but IIRC most of them are free to use.
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What's the point of slightly changing the formulas ?
Those who already manage and handle the formulas won't suffer from it.
Those who are still figuring them out will have an even harder time doing it.
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,14:09:13 ) Situation:
There are many easy to google "ready-2-drive" tools are available, killing the idea of the learning curve for new managers. Huge databases allow to predict a very good initial setup, wingsplit, expected car wear, tyres range and fuel usage, without having a single race under the belt.
a question: Is that such a bad thing actually ? And is it really "killing" the learning curve, or is it just making the initial steps easier ?
As someone pointed out in another topic, quite many managers are in rookie/amateur.
Sure, those "ready-2-drive" tools can make it easier to do the basic stuff, i.e setup & race strategy, but I'd imagine that the managers & teams who are willing to go past those tools (and make their own) are the ones who rise higher.
Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,14:09:13 ) Managers and even teams willing to work on their own data to find the formulas, are in a worse situation than a new manager with basic googling skills, which may lead them either to switch to the online tools, either to quit.
There are still several aspects of gpro where good teamwork can make a difference.
Gpro is much more than single race strategy or car setup.
This is also why I think it's important to keep certain things in GPRO "non-public", even when some people have advocated open-policy on everything. As example what others are spending on, what kind of sponsors they have, even the resources of team-mates etc.
Teamwork should (and is) still be important, so everything should not be shared automatically with team or other managers.
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How about a different game while we're at?
This is a woeful idea. Literally woeful.
Keep gpro as is and and how its currently developing and maybe produce a 2nd world with ever changing formulas. Then see which one stands the test of times.
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If you want to counter tools and managers who use them solely to race then stop them being able to parse data from the site.
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,14:09:13 ) Managers and even teams willing to work on their own data to find the formulas, are in a worse situation
Aren't you making it even worse by advertising said tools ? :)
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 20th 2018,15:19:21 ) Aren't you making it even worse by advertising said tools ? :)
Isn't that an open secret? :-)
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 20th 2018,15:13:44 ) a question: Is that such a bad thing actually ? And is it really "killing" the learning curve, or is it just making the initial steps easier ?
I would agree on some publicly available knoledge to make the game easier for starters, but I think the tools are much more that just initial steps. And it cannot be controlled in any way. That's why I think they should be weakened somehow.
Quote ( Julio Asencio @ April 20th 2018,15:02:39 ) What's the point of slightly changing the formulas ?
Those who already manage and handle the formulas won't suffer from it.
Those who are still figuring them out will have an even harder time doing it.
To try to engage those, who are using tools without understanding them.
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Quote ( Michael Keeney @ April 20th 2018,15:16:24 ) If you want to counter tools and managers who use them solely to race then stop them being able to parse data from the site.
I'm only a novice at this kind of stuff, and a self-educated one at that, but I don't think it's technically feasible to do this. One highly popular online tool requires users to install a small application on their computer. The way I understand it, it's the user's computer which reads the data from GPRO and then submits it to the tool's database. I don't think you can really stop that, but I'd gladly be corrected by people with more programming kowledge than me.
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,14:56:03 ) Quote
I have no idea who is standing behind those pages, but IIRC most of them are free to use.
most of them is not all of them, so you would probably just weed out the worse ones and increase the market share for the more effective ones.
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,15:30:03 ) And it cannot be controlled in any way.
Control the internet ? Yeah, gpro has resources to do that :P
Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,15:30:03 ) That's why I think they should be weakened somehow.
And at what cost.
Now... I do understand the point you're trying to make, after all I did arrive here at time when there really wasn't such things available. It was all up to the managers.
Having that said, introducing constant changes to try and cripple such tools would most likely end up crippling gpro even more, and cost much more than it would help.
Furthermore who's to say those tools don't automatically update themselves, so the proposed "crippling" might actually work just the opposed way than you expected.
You might actually end up causing more harm to self-reliant teams/managers.
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ April 20th 2018,14:29:44 ) It would make online tools completely unusable. And I just think they should be weakened, not killed, because too many managers are using them. Cutting them the access could make them leave the game.
I really don't like this argument. I understand the point, and quite likely it's in line with Vlad's thinking, but let me turn it around:
How many managers has GPRO lost over the years because they are not aware of the online tools or not willing to use them, and they have no clue why the hell other rookies are beating them all the time? And how many more will have to follow?
It is this line of thinking that has resulted in the GPRO community existing in large part of dinosaurs, and GPRO's survival depending on this group of managers. In that sense perhaps you are right and it is now too late to make drastic changes, because it would kill the game off. But the longer you wait, the harder it gets. Current path also leads to slow but certain destruction, in my opinion.
EDIT:
Changing some formulas will make it hard for ALL the rookies to get their setup/tyres/fuel/parts wear right. Yes you will screw up in many races... but so will the other guys around you. Gone will be the days of super rookies who don't use their brain but use some tools to tell them what to do and then they win 12+ races per season.
I saw this game, and especially its predecessor that shall not be named, in the times when most people hadn't a clue how to calculate setups or fuel consumption. You still had the best managers in the elite tier and the worse ones in the lower leagues. You still had races where you got everything just right, and boy were they satisfying. You also still had to manage your season and long-term vision as well as individual races. And it was a lot of fun. :) [/nostalgia]
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Yeah for sure most of these tools weren't around til last few years on the kind of public scale that they can be sourced at...I for one learnt my trade the hard way by getting my perfect setup with only knowing the satisfied range and then working within a given range to get the right setup...of course over time developed my own excels to remove the paper and pen side of things, hehe those were the days. I can't say I'd have preferred to have learnt (or acquired) the tools available today early in my career, cos those moments of discovery are what drew me to the game to begin with owing to a love for problem solving.
I think its a shame stuff is widely available like that but what can you do, I imagine a few things were passed around even before some became publicly accessible. Still, its one thing to have a tool and another to be able to manage...a tool will really only go so far. The crux of GPRO is the human elements - analyzing data, planning seasons and counter-acting to the strategy of others (both in races themselves and the wider season) is still a major human element that is far greater than any tool...and being able to plan and prepare things well is still the deciding factor than having a tool that says this is what perfect setup is and what fuel you need. The formulas arn't the key to success in GPRO...and is probably why so many people (still, even after 41 seasons of play for me) enjoy the challenge.
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I said it already in some other thread but Ill repeat it here.
The enormous majority of gamers population only looks for instant gratification in any game. That probably means that GPRO is extreme niche game and it is normal and acceptable that 90% of newcomers dont stick with the game as is now.
You can change calculations for setup, tyres, fuel etc just a bit or more drasticaly and it probably wont affect newcomers nothing more than it used to do before.
@Tomek Kiełpiński if you think that guys that run tools site wont react to changes in calculation you are deeply wrong. They charge money for it and I can safely guess that amount of data collected after each race greatly surpass any team in GPRO.
I would not be even surprised that one or more teams are behind these sites lol Id do that myself if I were in their boots ;)
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When you have a family team with 9 sisters...its easy to see how a resource like that is (sadly) easily composed and made money from.
That's 9 ugly sisters then...
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It's like Stuart says, every season you can learn something from the game and keep improving, which makes the game more beautiful, and the tools do not teach you to be the best in all aspects, it also plays the reasoningt
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