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Topic: Balance Sports psychologist vs Spa |
56 replies
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Quote ( Vladimir Alexandrov @ June 5th 2019,18:43:07 )
Here are some training stats
Cool, thanks. Any chance we could see them per race class? Mighty curious about the distribution of those 888 PR-trainings :D
E: and perhaps limited to data since the introduction of the infamous spa ;)
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James, if we're going for realism, fitness should also increase charisma. I, for one, always feel mighty confident (dare i say sexy) right after i finish my three dailyweekly pushups.
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Quote ( Vladimir Alexandrov @ June 5th 2019,18:43:07 ) Indeed we could balance some trainings to make them a bit more viable. Maybe it can happen already for next season.
I think it's worth examining it according to "classes" before making any decisions.
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Quote ( James Hitchen @ June 5th 2019,19:21:14 ) Serious suggestion: rather than trying to boost the other training methods maybe nerf the fitness training a little? Maybe have a small driver energy loss after fitness training, maybe the heavier the driver the more energy is lost?
I don't think that's a good idea. The reason Fitness training is used so much is not because it is OP but because it's (trainingwise) the only option to get your stamina up. And it's much slower than Yoga. It is already penalized as you loose some moti for doing fitness training.
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Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ June 5th 2019,19:27:07 ) James, if we're going for realism, fitness should also increase charisma. I, for one, always feel mighty confident (dare i say sexy) right after i finish my three dailyweekly pushups.
Good point, we also need weight to effect charisma, along with salary. ;) I wasn't really going for realism but the real world has decent balance so why not take some inspiration from it?
Quote ( Joachim Rang @ June 5th 2019,19:30:33 ) I don't think that's a good idea. The reason Fitness training is used so much is not because it is OP but because it's (trainingwise) the only option to get your stamina up. And it's much slower than Yoga. It is already penalized as you loose some moti for doing fitness training.
Its a good point and I agree, but if stamina is so important that people are willing to use it over all the other methods then surely it is OP, if it was balanced people would go for other training methods to increase other stats to find the pace lost from stamina being harder to get. Unfortunately with the way driver stats work I don't think this is realistically possible. Ideally you could achieve a theoretical fastest possible driver with a range of driver attributes (I don't mean a variance of a couple of points between the main routes) instead say a very charismatic driver would reduce tyre supplier costs and car part costs by charming the providers so then the manager can spend more on car parts, this would bring PR training back into the mix if the effect is big enough and make it a valid driver stat. Do similar with other stats so you could get two drivers with the same OA but made up of massively different attributes be able to match each others pace when all the effects are taken into consideration. Bit of a ramble but thats just my thoughts. =)
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Quote ( James Hitchen @ June 5th 2019,19:21:14 ) and will make people consider mixing up their training a bit more by being forced into
Seriously? Why would you want to "force" ppl into mixing up their training? How much do you mix up your training?
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I am in favor of any reasonable change.
Changes must be announced 4-5 seasons in advance.
I'm going planned, for many seasons strategy.
Many people are leaving because of "ad hoc" measures. :(
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Quote ( Tibor Szuromi @ June 5th 2019,20:00:34 ) Changes must be announced 4-5 seasons in advance.
lol I disagree
Any major changes a season's notice , any minor tweaks are okay adhoc :)
Quote ( Tibor Szuromi @ June 5th 2019,20:00:34 ) Many people are leaving because of "ad hoc" measures. :(
The player numbers are actual stable despite you and a few others constant banging on about numbers dropping
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Quote ( Ken Neihart @ June 5th 2019,19:54:35 ) Seriously? Why would you want to "force" ppl into mixing up their training? How much do you mix up your training?
So far this season I have done 2 types of training. I've only used 2 types of training in S68/69 as well, S64/65/66/67 I only used one type. I'd imagine most people will be similar, maybe 3 at most a season.
Perhaps force was the wrong word, but make training require a little bit more thought. I really don't know how to word what I mean, but more variety is always good.
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Quote ( Vladimir Alexandrov @ June 5th 2019,18:43:07 ) Here are some training stats:
How'bout the share of all trainings from potential trainings
ie past season ~7700 managers * 17 races =
119,000 potential sessions = 100%
xxx trainings done = xx%
or to put the other way around, how'bout the stat and share of "no training" ?
Quote ( James Hitchen @ June 5th 2019,19:21:14 ) Serious suggestion: rather than trying to boost the other training methods maybe nerf the fitness training a little? Maybe have a small driver energy loss after fitness training, maybe the heavier the driver the more energy is lost?
So your "serious suggestion" is to discourage driver training even more
The point is this: Managers training drivers is paramount for driver market, If trainings other than Spa are made less appealing that doesn't bode well for future markets
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Where's the option for training to work in a call centre?
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Quote ( Tibor Szuromi @ June 5th 2019,20:10:30 ) /gb/Stats.asp?type=graphparticipants#scroll
What are you looking at?
Tibor, that actually shows they are stable! :) maybe you let your opinion and perspective mingle with actual facts ?
I like the idea of some minor tweaks for training,, though I'd be very surprised if we could agree on a change, that would be deemed a good one by a majority in time for next season? just considering that all play styles/strategies will be in favour of different things..
without considering massively:P I like-
SPA: losing 1 STA or 1 CON or gaining 1 WEI
SP: 10-20 extra MOT
or even a completely new session???
some kind of physical coordination training that gives a little CON & FIT ???
some examples-
Jump Rope Drills 800k +2CON +1STA -1WEI -MOT
or
Small Ball Toss 600k +1CON +1STA +MOT
just ideas
I also like energy drain for fitness :D and believe testing should also tire the driver hehe :P
Good post, Vlad :]
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Quote ( James Berriman @ June 5th 2019,22:14:36 ) Jump Rope Drills 800k
It'd better be a jump rope made from braided golden wires with diamonds set between them. :)
On a serious not, I agree about making spa drop some Con, Stam or increase weight. I also know that not everyone probably agrees with it. I hope Vlad has read this discussion because I believe it was an interesting one with lots of different perspectives: /forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=27955&Page=1
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lol yes.. my prices were more in line with the effects, could not think of any generic names for physo-coordination sessions :]
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Quote ( James Berriman @ June 5th 2019,22:14:36 ) that actually shows they are stable!
True but tbf to Tibor the rebuttal from Peter doesn't make sense - it doesn't mean players aren't leaving, I believe they are quitting but being replaced by new players so the cycle of the lower tiers being horrible for new players can continue. *Polishes Novice Tier Suggestion* ;)
Quote ( James Berriman @ June 5th 2019,22:14:36 ) testing should also tire the driver hehe :P
But testing is just so expensive i cant afford to send my driver to a spa afterwards!!!
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How about if Spa loses Con -1, rest as it is? If you use all of your energy all the time and lay in spa to regain it, are you more focused even if you're "ready to race"?
Edit: Jasper said it earlier:
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ June 5th 2019,22:31:42 ) On a serious not, I agree about making spa drop some Con, Stam or increase weight.
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Quote ( James Hitchen @ June 5th 2019,20:06:40 ) Perhaps force was the wrong word, but make training require a little bit more thought. I really don't know how to word what I mean, but more variety is always good.
Now this I could go for. I do admit as everyone else knows that training is pretty generic, so to put a spin on it to open it up a bit would be nice.
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Quote ( Sam Norris @ June 5th 2019,22:49:39 ) it doesn't mean players aren't leaving, I believe they are quitting but being replaced by new players
turnover absolutely! but I think it is more new players coming and new players going,,, Tibor's argument is more about "ad hoc changes" driving out existing players, and sure maybe a little of that has happened, but not enough to influence that chart I'd recon. Old players sometimes leave and sometimes new players stay around.. lot's has been done to support and encourage newbies :D but it is a niche market game, so button bashers will always be coming and going..
This kind of change is great in my book! sure little ripples can create big waves,, but you can't catch and ride little ripples!!! :D
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ June 5th 2019,21:36:54 ) So your "serious suggestion" is to discourage driver training even more The point is this: Managers training drivers is paramount for driver market, If trainings other than Spa are made less appealing that doesn't bode well for future markets
I should of been more clear that my example with the fitness wasn't just limited to changing fitness but for spa as well. Everyone suggests making the other methods more powerful rather than looking at the 2/3 that are beneficial. I think its less that the rarely used training methods aren't good enough and more to do with how driver stats work and how they are weighted. But thats just me.
In my other reply i did explain the basis of my suggestion a bit more i think, which explains the bigger changes which would lead to encouraging driver training while discouraging the 'known' way.
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Don't be misunderstood.
Immediate introduction of changes is not like.
I don't like the GPS mode: "redesign".
For example: driver training (for several seasons).
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How about a dedicated motivation training ?
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I don't think we can draw conclusions about fitness training being overpowered. If anything, fitness training most of the times produces lower pace gain than yoga, ninja or spa, sometimes even producing losses in qualy times.
The thing is, instead, stamina increases very slowly, it's quite harmed at season breaks (as opposed to concentration, for which a driver gets +90 gains from 16 to 30 years old just breaks alone) and it gets harmed by yoga trainings as well, with each yoga requiring a fitness training to break even stamina wise. Thus, a driver can go from 0 to 200 concentration with just ~22 yoga trainings plus season breaks, whereas 0 to 200 stamina requires ~110 fitness trainings (lower with testing, but still way higher than the trainings required to prepare concentration). It is not surprising, then, the ratio yoga:fitness trainings per Vlad's data at 4.8:1 is very similar to the proportion 5:1 stated here.
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Edwin,
If you can get 200 conc from 0 in 22 yoga sessions & a couple of resets, you must be doing something different to the rest of us.
Surely you mean about 33 plus 3 resets. ( with a young driver I might add)
Yes ??
Edit;
Oh sorry.
Yeah I see what you mean now.
Spaced out over 14 seasons.
But that wouldn't be practical or the way you would do it.
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Sports Psych was too weak even before Spa overshadowed it imo, so a boost irrespective of whether Spa ever gets changed is a good idea. 1.5 to 2 times more moti boost than now seems reasonable.
The problem with it in lower divisions is that it will often give less pace than a 'proper' permanent training. In Elite it was useful (before Spa) in the narrow scenario where you wanted to raise moti and had enough pace to keep hold of the gains it gave you. If you were in the back half of the field it was fairly useless because you'd immediately lose what you gained (and yet that's where you most want extra moti).
So another idea is to make the gain semi-permanent in some way. Perhaps it gives you some immediate moti but also raises your moti 'floor' from the normal 0 up to some fixed number times the number of Sports Psychs the driver has done that season. So after 4 of them say you wouldn't be able to go below ~120 moti. Then the floor would return to 0 at season reset, or decay some other way. This way it'd be viable to raise moti even while suffering poor results.
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Adding to Roland, but simplifying it a bit, I think Moti drops (and rises) too quickly in general.
Even Russell and Kubica are motivated to get the best out of their not-so-stellar cars right now, and ending at the back of the pack doesn't change too much.
It would be nice if a driver's motivation was based on realistic expectations regarding the package that is driven in as well as the drivers' own skills.
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I would suggest Sports Psychologist to have a "two-tick" effect on driver's motivation. The 1st "tick" is immediate (adding the amount of motivation as we currently have), and the 2nd "tick" would add another portion of motivation during post-race update (combined with either positive or negative motivation effect from driver's performance in the race), but only if the driver is the same during the training and the race.
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