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Topic: How far down the meta-rabbit-hole does FOBY go? |
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As we all (should) know, talking publicly about specific data and the information derived from that data is not allowed and belongs into FOBY-territory, and this is good, as it keeps the game interesting.
But does that rule also extend to meta-discussions about methods that turn data (which we don't share) into useful information (which we also don't share)? Are these also forbidden?
And if so, what about meta²-discussions about how to find such methods?
Is it turtles FOBY all the way down?
Actually, for all practical purposes, I'm (mostly) interested in the first level, but I couldn't resist adding another (and another, and...).
Edit: I hope this is the correct sub-forum, as it looks like a newbie-question. If not, would a mod be so kind and move it to the correct one?
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#2 posted Aug 25th 2017, 13:16:40
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You mean you have data but you don't know what to do with it?
Try to find patterns in the data, then determine the external parameters when the found patterns occur. Observe the external parameters variance and the variance in the patterns...
I suppose...
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#3 posted Aug 25th 2017, 13:18:55
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Or much easier - join a team that has already got a tool.
Nothing to stop you starting from there and to refine it further if you don't feel it is good enough.....
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#4 posted Aug 25th 2017, 13:22:22 (last edited Aug 25th 2017, 13:23:14 by Chris Shaw)
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Quote ( Robin Goodey @ August 25th 2017,13:18:55 ) Or much easier - join a team that has already got a tool.
This is what ruins the game. FOBY isn't FOBY. It's join a team, see their tool, pretend you knew all along. Give up trying to FOBY, it's a competitive game - why give your rivals a head start on you... join a team, learn everything from what they know. If you're good, develop what they know further.
If someone made an open-source calculator and distributed it, would that be allowed? Same question, but with caveat that it's distributed outside of GPRO?
*not that i'd ever do that*
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ August 25th 2017,13:22:22 ) If someone made an open-source calculator and distributed it, would that be allowed? Same question, but with caveat that it's distributed outside of GPRO?
Of course it's allowed - only takes a simple google search and you will find plenty of sites that *claim* to give you an accurate setup. Some of them even charge for it.....
Whether Vlad and co are happy that others are profiting from their game is another story... (short answer is no - otherwise the names of such sites wouldn't be blacklisted on here)
And the game has been around 60 seasons - so there are a LOT of calcs out there already. Are they actually accurate? No - nearly all of them have varying errors (for whatever reason) - but some (those used by the top teams) ARE accurate to within 1-2 points EVERY time
Are they accurate enough to get a struggling beginner to be competitive though? Yes - for sure.
So why not get everyone to a 'decent' level of skill, and then let those who want to / are capable of improving the 'ok' calculators do so, to create their own 'good' calc.
If people are competitive (via using a calc) - then they will stay in the game longer - which has to be a good thing.
EDIT: To add one further thing - anyone who thinks that a setup calculator, or a fuel or tyre calc is going to suddenly turn a poor manager into Elite champion is kidding themselves. The calculators are a starting point - but the manager's planning, strategy and financial management are what makes someone good - not an excel sheet.
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Anyway the game is not only about setting calculation. Money is more important and there is no tool for that. Learn how to manage your budget first and then join a team to learn the rest.
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#7 posted Aug 25th 2017, 13:43:21
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Quote ( Robin Goodey @ August 25th 2017,13:18:55 ) Or much easier - join a team that has already got a tool.
And there are certainly some teams that have at least one tool! :P
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#8 posted Aug 25th 2017, 13:47:10
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Quote ( Graham Mercer @ August 25th 2017,13:43:21 ) And there are certainly some teams that have at least one tool! :P
In fact it's a requirement to join certain teams ;)
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#9 posted Aug 25th 2017, 13:54:41
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Doesn't Daneks still use paper and pen?
No such tools exist.
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#10 posted Aug 25th 2017, 14:13:48
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LINEST function is a nice tool in Excel. With little data it can find correlations pretty much between anything, so it requires some data (depends on how many parameters you have, most things don't need too many of them, but it's at first it may be hard to figure out which parameters to use).
About the calculators given that there are some rough calculators available in the web, I think GPRO should give some help to people. So for example race analysis could include some fuel/tyre wear per km values, and for supporters all the fuel/tyre/part data from one track could be collected to one page too. Especially if there ever is an app, it should be playable without other software (although I can't see it happening to high level).
But yeah, calculators are only help. Planning is really the key. I would say a reasonably accurate part wear calculator combined with a finance calculator helps planning a lot.
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#11 posted Aug 25th 2017, 14:17:11
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Quote ( Robin Goodey @ August 25th 2017,13:31:45 ) EDIT: To add one further thing - anyone who thinks that a setup calculator, or a fuel or tyre calc is going to suddenly turn a poor manager into Elite champion is kidding themselves. The calculators are a starting point - but the manager's planning, strategy and financial management are what makes someone good - not an excel sheet.
Yes and no. If you just look at the numbers the tools give then you are a fool! If you look at what influences the numbers they give, you will see what you need to do in order to change the numbers more in your benefit. Why are my pit times slow, why is my driver OA high, all the "why" is important. But I agree that the manager alone has to make the right decisions and be able to use judgement to fill in the gaps that the sheets leave. Final point on this - good decisions are informed decisions. Guess and you may guess wrong. Been there, done that. Better tools certainly help.
Also, Experiencing the game is crucial - take my journey to pro for example. I went in with no clue where I needed to be at in order to score points, but I found out so I can come up with a better strategy to be ready for next time.
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#12 posted Aug 25th 2017, 14:19:52
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 25th 2017,14:13:48 ) But yeah, calculators are only help. Planning is really the key. I would say a reasonably accurate part wear calculator combined with a finance calculator helps planning a lot.
I wrote a full season cost simulation, took me around 15 hours of beer n pizza. At the end I'm glad I enjoy Excel otherwise I'd not enjoy GPRO - sad but true fact of this game is it just isn't open to "blue collar" F1 fans.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 25th 2017,14:13:48 ) LINEST function is a nice tool in Excel
Noted. Makes my idea of running a DOE in modeFrontier seem like I'm nuking a fly.
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#13 posted Aug 25th 2017, 17:33:22
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Thanks everyone for your replies!
Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ August 25th 2017,13:16:40 ) You mean you have data but you don't know what to do with it?
Yes and no. I have data. I know what I should be able to get from this data. I have some background in data analysis, so I have an idea about how I might get from the data to the results. Now I'm working on the specifics, as I don't think trying to construct and solve a (non?)linear system with several hundred unknowns is the best way to go at it.
Quote ( Robin Goodey @ August 25th 2017,13:18:55 ) join a team that has already got a tool.
That's exactly what I don't want to do (for now). For me, a big part of the joy of GPRO is to figure out how things work, finding the hidden connections and then successfully using that knowledge to improve. To get the answers on a silver plate would take away all the excitement.
When I've mapped out the basics to my satisfaction, I might reconsider, and will probably join a team and continue my journey from there. I also thought about starting a new team if I find more people like myself.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 25th 2017,14:13:48 ) LINEST function is a nice tool in Excel.
Thanks, Jukka! That's much nicer to work with than what I was trying to cobble together in Python with the least-squares solver from numpy.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 25th 2017,14:13:48 ) I would say a reasonably accurate part wear calculator combined with a finance calculator helps planning a lot.
I suspect a reasonable part wear calculator needs a rather large amount of data, as each track has to be present at least once.
Quote ( Chris Shaw @ August 25th 2017,14:19:52 ) I wrote a full season cost simulation, took me around 15 hours of beer n pizza.
That sounds like a good idea, maybe I should do the same. 15h sounds doable, too.
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