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Temë: rookie to amateur with 0 points? |
87 përgjigje
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#1 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:12:06
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Was looking through the promotion lists today. There was a few rookie groups where managers currently with 0 (ZERO) points are currently in the automatic promotion places in their groups.
I was always under the impression that 50 points was the magic number, but even in the additional promoters 31 points is currently enough.
Are we promoting too many rookies?
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#2 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:19:03
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Quote ( Steven Burns @ March 18th 2014,09:12:06 )
Are we promoting too many rookies?
No, the people who are deliberately not promoting are. Most people who can't even score in rookie will have their ass kicked in amateur and not come back to GPRO.
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#3 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:19:13
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Quote ( Steven Burns @ March 18th 2014,09:12:06 ) Was looking through the promotion lists today. There was a few rookie groups where managers currently with 0 (ZERO) points are currently in the automatic promotion places in their groups.
I was always under the impression that 50 points was the magic number, but even in the additional promoters 31 points is currently enough.
Are we promoting too many rookies?
Imo, yes we are.
I think we would be a lot better off by dropping ama to 35 - 36 managers and cutting the number of promotions.
Too many guys get promoted in there first season, then quit after reaching ama.
Look at many of the ama groups, a lot of them only have around 35 managers competing.
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#4 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:19:54
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To make Rookie a little bit more interesting, I think there should only be the top 2 that promote and then additional after that.
But saying that it probably wont make that much difference apart from it will reduces the amount of people getting relegated.
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#5 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:25:53
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i see your point.... so many managers in negative figures makes it tricky
rookie 134 for instance, if 1 more manager goes negative an auto promotion spot will go to a manager who race once in race 6 or 7, finished 12th and gave up.
It could of course sort itself out between now and the end of the season with people getting themselves back into positive cash flow
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#6 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:34:26
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Quote ( Matt Kasar @ March 18th 2014,09:25:53 ) rookie 134 for instance, if 1 more manager goes negative an auto promotion spot will go to a manager who race once in race 6 or 7, finished 12th and gave up.
Except his account will be retired for missing so many races in a row. But from the same logic then somebody who hasn't even joined GPRO yet could promote if they finish 14th next race (Out of about 20 starters) :O
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#7 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:35:46
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seems weird at first look, but you can see a lot of managers will finish positive at the end.
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#8 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 09:37:17
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there has been an extension of the groups (more Master, more Pro, much more Amateur)... therefore the Rookie level has become useless....unless the admins manage to get a LOT of new players in to fill the groups....otherwise is insane to have Rookie groups with so little contenders
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Quote ( Niels Wolters @ March 18th 2014,09:37:17 ) there has been an extension of the groups (more Master, more Pro, much more Amateur)... therefore the Rookie level has become useless....unless the admins manage to get a LOT of new players in to fill the groups....otherwise is insane to have Rookie groups with so little contenders
Completely agree. Rookie has developed into what it is because of the overly ambitious expansion of GPRO. Rookie groups were never full before the expansion, so it was inevitable this situation was going to occur unless the admins had a rabbit up their sleeve to attract a mass of new commited players.
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#10 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 10:14:57
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Quote ( Adam Plumb @ March 18th 2014,09:19:54 ) To make Rookie a little bit more interesting, I think there should only be the top 2 that promote and then additional after that.
But saying that it probably wont make that much difference apart from it will reduces the amount of people getting relegated.
Why would it not make a difference? :/
Reducing the number of relegations from Ama to 8 will reduce a 1000 Rookie promotions which sounds just right
Will be very motivating for people struggling in Ama(and eventually quitting) and will increase competition in Rookie as well
What has been done has been done, but this sounds like a good method to sort things out a bit
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#11 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 10:15:56
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The expansion of groups has simply happened too fast I guess. Probably needed to be more gradual.
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I don't think reducing the number of automatic promotions from Rookie is a good way to do things. It just creates more additional promotions, which is the real issue here.
Reducing the size of Amateur groups wouldn't help either, IMO, and there are other ramifications of not being able to finish in a really bad position to drop motivation, for those trying to do that, and it would make no difference if the number of those promoting from Rookie wasn't changed.
The Amateur groups are fully expanded to 125 groups right now.
With 15 relegation spots, that's 1875 relegations. Once Rookie is fully expanded to 625 groups with 3 promoting from each, that's your 1875 promotions there.
Problem right now is that we are only at 416 Rookie groups, and they are not full enough to justify the further expansion.
With the Rookie groups at their current level, we have only 1248 automatic promotions, which leaves a massive 627 additional promotions needed from only 416 groups (of people not finishing in negative). That is way too much.
The best solution, IMO, until the Rookie groups fill up more, is to reduce the number of people relegating from Amateur.
If we reduce it to only 12 relegating, that's only 1500 needing promoted (which is 252 additional at current number of Rookie groups). 10 relegating would give 1250 needing promoted (only 2 additional at current number of Rookie groups).
There is a balance to be found, I'm sure, but, until Rookie groups fill up, I think reducing the number of additional promotion spots is the best way to solve any issues (and it is an issue of new managers are promoting and getting demotivated by being uncompetitive in Amateur, having promoted from Rookie too quickly having learned nothing, and leaving the game). The best way to do that, is to reduce the number of relegation spots in Amateur.
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#13 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 10:56:35
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,10:26:34 ) I don't think reducing the number of automatic promotions from Rookie is a good way to do things. It just creates more additional promotions, which is the real issue here.
Reducing the size of Amateur groups wouldn't help either, IMO, and there are other ramifications of not being able to finish in a really bad position to drop motivation, for those trying to do that, and it would make no difference if the number of those promoting from Rookie wasn't changed.
The Amateur groups are fully expanded to 125 groups right now.
With 15 relegation spots, that's 1875 relegations. Once Rookie is fully expanded to 625 groups with 3 promoting from each, that's your 1875 promotions there.
Problem right now is that we are only at 416 Rookie groups, and they are not full enough to justify the further expansion.
With the Rookie groups at their current level, we have only 1248 automatic promotions, which leaves a massive 627 additional promotions needed from only 416 groups (of people not finishing in negative). That is way too much.
The best solution, IMO, until the Rookie groups fill up more, is to reduce the number of people relegating from Amateur.
If we reduce it to only 12 relegating, that's only 1500 needing promoted (which is 252 additional at current number of Rookie groups). 10 relegating would give 1250 needing promoted (only 2 additional at current number of Rookie groups).
There is a balance to be found, I'm sure, but, until Rookie groups fill up, I think reducing the number of additional promotion spots is the best way to solve any issues (and it is an issue of new managers are promoting and getting demotivated by being uncompetitive in Amateur, having promoted from Rookie too quickly having learned nothing, and leaving the game). The best way to do that, is to reduce the number of relegation spots in Amateur.
The reason I say that the number of people in Ama should be reduced, is to function as sort of a stop gap measure for the shortage of managers in Rookie.
By reducing to 35 per group I also meant keep the relegations the same, meaning there would only be 10 people relegating per season.
Most groups currently only have between 29 and 32 managers running. Which is in large part due to Rookies having been promoted too quickly quitting after just a few races in Ama.
If ama is reduced to 35 managers, that adds in 1.5 managers (on average) per rookie group competing. This would help add a little more activity to rookie as well as reduce the number of completely inexperienced managers in Ama.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ March 18th 2014,10:56:35 ) Most groups currently only have between 29 and 32 managers running.
I've not looked at all groups, but mine had 33 in the last race. Both of our groups had 39 racing in the first race of the season.
We know there is a drop off, and I don't doubt some of this is due to Rookies promoted too early feeling helpless to avoid relegation. I personally feel that reducing the number of relegation spots in a 40 manager Amateur league would accomplish this better than reducing the spots and the number of managers.
Also, changing the number of people in an Amateur group has other ramifications such as not allowing people to finish in very low positions for motivation dropping purposes. Also, it's already easy to get sponsors in Amatuer with 40 managers in the group. This would be even easier if it was reduced at all, so other changes would need to be made to compensate for that.
Just reducing the number of relegations, without changing the group size, is a simpler solution for me, messes with very little else, and easily adjusted as Rookie groups increase (we could go to 10 relegations from Amatuer right now, and just increase them by 1 or 2 each time the Rookie groups expand again, to cover the automatic promotions).
While the numbers are low in Rookie, this should continue to improve, and if managers are not getting "punished" with automatic promotions, then it creates a more competitive Rookie level which should help in retention, and ultimately increasing the managers competing at that level.
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#15 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 11:14:14
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Read his second sentence "Reducing the size of Amateur groups wouldn't help either, IMO, and there are other ramifications of not being able to finish in a really bad position to drop motivation, for those trying to do that, and it would make no difference if the number of those promoting from Rookie wasn't changed."
You can`t change the rulle only for ama to have 35 managers and the rest with 40 .... you need to change all game.
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#16 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 11:19:22
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,10:26:34 ) With the Rookie groups at their current level, we have only 1248 automatic promotions, which leaves a massive 627 additional promotions needed from only 416 groups (of people not finishing in negative). That is way too much.
Did nobody notice my mistake here? :/
With Rookie at the level it currently is, there are still four automatic promotion spots from each group (not three as is the case elsewhere and will be the case in Rookie once expansion is complete), which is 1664 automatic promotions (211 additional promotions).
As that isn't working, and for the reasons already said, I'd personally prefer Rookie promotions down to 3 automatic per group (more than enough for the small numbers racing in each group), and Amateur relegations changed to 10 per group, until such time as there are enough Rookie managers to justify a further increase in Rookie groups.
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#17 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 11:27:05
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What is being suggested with reducing the Ama relegations/Rookie promos may be the best solution 'patch', but I feel the underlining problem is that GPRO expanded when there wasn't really the demand to do so, and this is a situation created by GPRO being too ambitious for its own good.
Hopefully in time the demand rises and the natural level of the game grows to accomodate the decision to expand to the level it has, but looking at the half full rookie groups now, it will take an awful lot to find the number of managers that is needed to create that natural balance the game needs.
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#18 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 11:37:21
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GPRO was full before the expansion so it was badly needed. Also there are some rookie groups with more than 20 active racers. Isn't moving people from active groups to low activity ones the most simple, fair and easy solution?
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Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,11:27:05 ) GPRO expanded when there wasn't really the demand to do so
Are you sure about that?
What were the regular manager levels before expansion? How long were managers waiting on the waiting list to get a spot in Rookie before the expansion?
I don't know these figures off the top of my head, but I'm sure expansion was needed when it was started, or it wouldn't have been done.
Also, small numbers in Rookie is not an issue. In fact, having low numbers actually racing in Rookie is good for new managers as it encourages people to stay and learn the game, where as having them finishing 35th - 40th in every race when they are totally new to the game could be off putting (which is the issue when Rookies promote with no points and/or minimal races to Amateur).
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Quote ( Krasimir Ivanov @ March 18th 2014,11:37:21 ) Isn't moving people from active groups to low activity ones the most simple, fair and easy solution?
Because managers can join and leave so quickly when trying a new game. and the active managers generally learn and promote quickly just now anyway, that would be a very difficult thing to judge and balance before a season begins, and could easily change throughout the season (and you certainly couldn't move managers mid-season).
Sounds good in principle, but I don't see it being workable and achieving its goal in practice.
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Quote ( Krasimir Ivanov @ March 18th 2014,11:37:21 ) GPRO was full before the expansion so it was badly needed.
Not true. Check through the Rookie groups before expansion, they were definitately not full. I remember thinking at the time that the expansion ideas were ambitious.
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,11:37:58 ) What were the regular manager levels before expansion? How long were managers waiting on the waiting list to get a spot in Rookie before the expansion?
When looking at the qualification of rookie groups before expansion, they were no where near full. I admit there are other factors that need to be taking into account and it is hard to judge because of the nature in which manager join and leave, but having a brief look over rookie qualifying n last few seasons, I dont see much (if any ) improvement.
I dont know about waiting list and such like, but again I am not sure this is a fair reflection on the merits of expansion when managers come and leave the game so quickly.
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,11:37:58 ) Also, small numbers in Rookie is not an issue. In fact, having low numbers actually racing in Rookie is good for new managers as it encourages people to stay and learn the game, where as having them finishing 35th - 40th in every race when they are totally new to the game could be off putting (which is the issue when Rookies promote with no points and/or minimal races to Amateur).
I don't agree with this, Having half full (I am being kind when I say half full) rookie groups is not good for the game IMO. Having next to no competition in a group is hardly good preparation for the task that lie ahead in the next level. The bottom line is it should be harder to promote to Ama than it currently is, and having half full rookie groups will not help that in my opinion.
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#21 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:06:39
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Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,11:59:14 ) Not true. Check through the Rookie groups before expansion, they were definitately not full. I remember thinking at the time that the expansion ideas were ambitious.
That's not an accurate way to judge though.
When someone comes off the waiting list, they need a spot to go in to in Rookie. Many players that join an online game probably won't participate at all once signed up, but they need to be given a spot nonetheless, to give them the opportunity to play. Only after they have been given a spot and missed the races required can they be removed. As such, you will have many managers in Rookie not racing, but can still have the game "full"
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Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,11:59:14 ) I don't agree with this, Having half full (I am being kind when I say half full) rookie groups is not good for the game IMO. Having next to no competition in a group is hardly good preparation for the task that lie ahead in the next level. The bottom line is it should be harder o promote to Ama than it currently is, and having half full rookie groups will not help that in my opinion.
How is 20 racers for 3 promotion spots and 8 scoring spots no competition? It's something I've seen say should be the case at higher levels to increase competition so I can't understand why you claim that would be no competition.
Many of those that have argued about a change to the scoring system have expressed the argument that the percentage of scoring positions in a 40 manager group is too low, and the lack of being able to compete for points can be discouraging. This is not the case in Rookie.
Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,11:59:14 ) The bottom line is it should be harder o promote to Ama than it currently is, and having half full rookie groups will not help that in my opinion.
Rookie is supposed to be easy. Rookie is where you learn the basics of the game. Amateur is where you actually improve and get good at the game.
Rookie must be inviting, and for the reasons I mentioned above, it would be impossible to have "full" Rookie groups racing or you would be in a position where new managers are not being moved off the waiting list and in to the game!
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#22 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:08:16
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Nooo, don´t cut the Promotions. There must be another way. The 4th Promotion spot brought me to Amateur! :D
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#23 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:10:15
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Quote ( Constantin Heller @ March 18th 2014,12:08:16 ) Nooo, don´t cut the Promotions. There must be another way. The 4th Promotion spot brought me to Amateur! :D
And look how well you are doing in Amateur :p
Also, you could easily have competed for top 3 but you stopped pushing towards the end of the season as your promotion was assured.
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#24 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:11:16
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I know, I do that every season to get some money :P And it actually works so far...
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,12:06:39 ) How is 20 racers for 3 promotion spots and 8 scoring spots no competition? It's something I've seen say should be the case at higher levels to increase competition so I can't understand why you claim that would be no competition.
You are being very kind there if you think there are 20 managers for every rookie group, there certainly are not. And even if this was the case, I would still say the same, having half decent competition in groups (and numbers would for certain help create that) would stop new promoters being less prepared. Its a chicken and egg scenerio that wont be solved by creating less competition.
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,12:06:39 ) Rookie is supposed to be easy. Rookie is where you learn the basics of the game. Amateur is where you actually improve and get good at the game
Of course. But thats not the issue, rookie is now stupidly easy because the numbers in competition hasnt got anywhere near matching the game expansion. Why else hasn't the 'natural' expansion of rookie groups gone ahead? If we wanted to make it that easy why not open the lot up and give everyone a free ride to Ama?
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,12:06:39 ) it would be impossible to have "full" Rookie groups racing or you would be in a position where new managers are not being moved off the waiting list and in to the game!
At no point have I suggested we need 'Full' rookie groups, all I am saying is that rookie groups were no where near full before expansion, and now they are embarrasingly struggling to get half full, and this might suggest that the expansion was a little ambitious....but hopefully in time GPRO can fill out to accomodate.
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#26 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:27:18
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Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,12:20:51 ) You are being very kind there if you think there are 20 managers for every rookie group, there certainly are not.
I was only using your example :p
Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,12:20:51 ) At no point have I suggested we need 'Full' rookie groups, all I am saying is that rookie groups were no where near full before expansion, and now they are embarrasingly struggling to get half full, and this might suggest that the expansion was a little ambitious....but hopefully in time GPRO can fill out to accomodate.
So do you suggest that new managers wanting to play the game are left on the waiting list for an extended period of time, or do you have another solution?
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#27 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:29:16
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I still say we need a Semi-Pro class. It would take a while, but then people wouldn´t complain about Amateur being like Rookie because the people complaining would be in Semi-Pro...
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#28 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:31:52
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For me going into amatuer unpreparred as a newbie was a vital lesson. I could not popssibly have had this lesson staying in rookoie. Imo this lesson is better sooner than later. If people give up because of this unprepared promo then probably wouldnt last long any way.
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#29 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:32:34
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Additional promotions are the issue here, IMO.
Managers will promote from Rookie when they probably aren't ready, if they've just used excessive risks or such like, but there is no way to stop that. At least, if almost all managers promoting are doing so because they finished in a promotion spot, then it is due to their own actions.
What is discouraging is a brand new manager promoting with a race or two under his belt, or someone promoting that hasn't achieved a point finish throughout a full season competing against 12 or 16 managers, say.
I believe my solution addresses the additional promotion issue with regards to group expansion, although doesn't cover people going negative, which is another matter (and if people know to go negative to avoid automatic promotion, then they wouldn't promote regardless of the additional promotion spots). Don't want to get in to that discussion here though, it can be found elsewhere for people looking for it :)
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#30 Postuar 18 Mars 2014, 12:37:17
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,12:27:18 ) I was only using your example :p
If you were using my example...
Quote ( Danny Bayliss @ March 18th 2014,11:59:14 ) (I am being kind when I say half full)
.Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 18th 2014,12:27:18 ) So do you suggest that new managers wanting to play the game are left on the waiting list for an extended period of time, or do you have another solution?
I am not sure waiting times is really the killer argument in the discussion, but sure if on average the number of managers accross rookie is greatly reduced it makes sense waiting times will be too, but if I were running the site I would prefer the demand personally.
Anyway...I am not the oracle. I can only say what I see and don't know the extent of what goes on in the background, but bearing in mind that rookie groups were hardly flourishing in numbers before the expansion, it did strike me as strange that GPRO was looking to expand.
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