Quote ( Michael Winkley @ November 7th 2015,22:27:25 )
Ah, OK. So now we just make an issue 'disappear' by no longer showing it in the stats...? Are you a politician?
Investigate the Argentinian Government Institute called INDEC, then PM me to discuss on it :D
No Michael, DAs rejected stat was always about DAs rejected while at waiting list and it never reflected the actual number of accounts closed by Shadow while already having a spot in the game assigned, no matter if they had or not started races or what tier of the game they were at.
Quote ( Kirsty Ridley @ November 7th 2015,22:27:14 )
But if they hit rookie first, doesn;t that give a false count of people joining and leaving? Or the number in rookie at any one time? Or can you view that in a different way?
I did not understand the question, Curly :/
And Andrew, are you telling me that the Community needs to serve the rules instead of the rules serving the community? How can be a system change, which will eventually reflect in a rule change when ready, bad for us with no justification other than it not being in the rules at this very moment?
I assume when you work out how many people leave, its based on those who make it to a group in the first place. As a lot of speculation is about how many would leave now the price went up, will it not look worse than it is, because all those fake names are in rookie before being rejected. I mean, it will surely make the retention of mangers look a lot worse than it actually is.
Quote ( Alex Nikodem-Wing @ November 7th 2015,22:29:24 )
As far as GPRO's problems go DAs are not a main one
Maybe not, but I remember being in a group with one, it wasn't remotely obvious at all, his total login time for a whole season was something like 80 minutes and he won 15 of 17 races, I wonder how many others in that group thought "sod this I haven't got a chance" and quit as a result. "He" did disappear but may have taken a few genuine players with him.
Quote ( Mark Witney @ November 7th 2015,22:34:53 )
Maybe not, but I remember being in a group with one, it wasn't remotely obvious at all, his total login time for a whole season was something like 80 minutes and he won 15 of 17 races, I wonder how many others in that group thought "sod this I haven't got a chance" and quit as a result. "He" did disappear but may have taken a few genuine players with him.
This kind of DA is surely much harder to catch, if they show no signs of being a DA and have no reason to seem suspicious, I guess its just something that happens from time to time and is caught when possible.
Quote ( Mark Witney @ November 7th 2015,22:34:53 )
Quote ( Alex Nikodem-Wing @ November 7th 2015,22:29:24 )
As far as GPRO's problems go DAs are not a main one
Maybe not, but I remember being in a group with one, it wasn't remotely obvious at all, his total login time for a whole season was something like 80 minutes and he won 15 of 17 races, I wonder how many others in that group thought "sod this I haven't got a chance" and quit as a result. "He" did disappear but may have taken a few genuine players with him.
I agree DAs are a problem, but as long as they are being dealt with in their first few races i think it is ok.
Quote ( Kirsty Ridley @ November 7th 2015,22:33:54 )
I assume when you work out how many people leave, its based on those who make it to a group in the first place. As a lot of speculation is about how many would leave now the price went up, will it not look worse than it is, because all those fake names are in rookie before being rejected. I mean, it will surely make the retention of mangers look a lot worse than it actually is.
If the managers do not start races, then they do not affect activity stats. The only visible change is in the activations/approvals ratio, which does not reflect activity.
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,22:39:42 )
Please explain why we have rules in the first place?
To make decisions easier and clearer for the Admins, and conditions agreed visible to the players. But rules are not static, and they do change to adapt to new situations Andrew.
Quote ( Alex Nikodem-Wing @ November 7th 2015,22:40:17 )
I agree DAs are a problem, but as long as they are being dealt with in their first few races i think it is ok.
Let me add that cases like the one Mark mentions are not a consequence of an automated approval system. If it went undetected at Waiting List when it was in place 24/7, then there's something more that made it stay undetected, and may require more than a Waiting list check to get visible.
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,22:45:51 )
Quote ( Kirsty Ridley @ November 7th 2015,22:33:54 )
I assume when you work out how many people leave, its based on those who make it to a group in the first place. As a lot of speculation is about how many would leave now the price went up, will it not look worse than it is, because all those fake names are in rookie before being rejected. I mean, it will surely make the retention of mangers look a lot worse than it actually is.
If the managers do not start races, then they do not affect activity stats. The only visible change is in the activations/approvals ratio, which does not reflect activity.
Seriously !
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,22:39:42 )
Please explain why we have rules in the first place?
To make decisions easier and clearer for the Admins, and conditions agreed visible to the players. But rules are not static, and they do change to adapt to new situations Andrew.
RULES :-. one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity.
Quote ( Alex Nikodem-Wing @ November 7th 2015,22:40:17 )
I agree DAs are a problem, but as long as they are being dealt with in their first few races i think it is ok.
Let me add that cases like the one Mark mentions are not a consequence of an automated approval system. If it went undetected at Waiting List when it was in place 24/7, then there's something more that made it stay undetected, and may require more than a Waiting list check to get visible.
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,22:45:51 )
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,22:39:42 )
Please explain why we have rules in the first place?
To make decisions easier and clearer for the Admins, and conditions agreed visible to the players. But rules are not static, and they do change to adapt to new situations Andrew.
rule ruːl/ noun plural noun: rules; noun: Rules
Edit I wish to report a fake name ....I believe that Melinda Flappytits may be a fake name :)
1. one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity.
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,22:52:05 )
Seriously !
Yes, seriously
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,22:52:05 )
RULES :-. one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity
This does not add anything to the conversation, Andrew. Do you understand that rules change, that those need to serve a purpose, and if the rule is not helping the parts involved, the change is not only natural but needed?
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,22:22:19 )
It does not work if the aim of the system is to reject as many fake names as possible, Andrew. And that approach is not functional to the site or managers interests right now, as it gets less managers starting races, whose name situation can be reviewed any time later.
If you consider a different objective, as making the site more newbie friendly and getting new audiences engaged, then the new system does work.
I've been supervising the change since it was introduced, and so far I consider the results good for the site; multiple accounts get sorted post-activations instead of being sorted in the waiting list; but that's a minor inconvenience compared to the benefits that can bring in new players terms.
If there is a zero rejections the question arises: is it bringing new managers in, or is it creating more accounts (not necessarily the same thing)
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,21:52:44 )
so why investing so much time in Shadow notifications and such? Shadow's time is better invested elsewhere I think :)
Chasing penguins ?
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,22:22:19 )
And on the full design... well, sometimes you need to try and FOBY new stuff to decide what is what brings the best results. This "beta" time is being used to analyse the traffic and check possible outcomes; so do not worry, as whatever the new system brings as final results WILL BE the best for the site's health.
I'm not at all surprised if people start to question things...
It is a slippery slope as it seems a bit like in attempt to get more accounts, some of the key values get thrown away. Like rule 8.4
When you let in 1000 accounts in what you call "beta", I dont' believe for a second that you'd be deleting them afterwards. (note usage of word "account" instead of "user", there's a difference)
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,22:59:41 )
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,22:52:05 )
RULES :-. one of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct or procedure within a particular area of activity
This does not add anything to the conversation, Andrew. Do you understand that rules change, that those need to serve a purpose, and if the rule is not helping the parts involved, the change is not only natural but needed?
Actual yes I do agree that rules change , however in the universe that I live in , we normally change the rules FIRST then implement them, Not the other way round.
point in case :-Promotion/relegation changes in Amateur/Rookie - announcement. BUT the rules have not been changed have they .
7.1 Promotion/Relegation
The top 3 managers in each group (excluding Elite) will be promoted to a randomly assigned group, one level above the level they are currently at. The bottom 15 managers from each group (excluding Rookie) will be relegated to the level below. Any manager, who finishes in the top 3, but with a negative balance, will not be promoted, and instead the next highest manager with a positive balance will be promoted in his/her place. Any manager who finishes with a negative balance shall be relegated to the division below. The highest placed manager in the relegation zone will remain in their group as a result.
Note that in case when the groups structure of the game is under ongoing expansion or reduction, a different number of managers may be promoted or relegated in the different classes of the game. 7.2 Other matters
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,23:07:11 )
BUT the rules have not been changed have they
You've just quoted it:
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,23:07:11 )
Note that in case when the groups structure of the game is under ongoing expansion or reduction, a different number of managers may be promoted or relegated in the different classes of the game.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ November 7th 2015,23:02:55 )
is it bringing new managers in, or is it creating more accounts (not necessarily the same thing)
It is bringing more managers to complete registration and activations steps, stay online, investigate/browse the site and start races. When Waiting list was in place all times, the bounce rate was higher and many managers left the site after realizing they had no activities to do.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ November 7th 2015,23:02:55 )
Chasing penguins ?
He needs to eat!
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ November 7th 2015,23:02:55 )
When you let in 1000 accounts in what you call "beta", I dont' believe for a second that you'd be deleting them afterwards.
Well, those are Shadow's problem and can't speak for him. But I can say that the signs that lead to a rejection at waiting list are still there after the account is approved, so Mr Shadow gets the "alert" he has work to do. And I know he does not like DAs, no matter if they are new or not :). Neither do I btw... I have certain tolerance to those jokish names, but my tolerance to DAs has always been ZERO.
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,23:07:11 )
Actual yes I do agree that rules change , however in the universe that I live in , we normally change the rules FIRST then implement them, Not the other way round.
Usually, but here at GPRO Admins take some time for it when changes are being implemented. And in this particular case I understand why.
Ask Tomek how annoying it is to have all those "strings needing update" notifications in the translation interface and you'll understand it is hard work to change the rules upon a small change which is not definitive/permanent because it generates extra work at multiple times to the translators.
I get the waiting list thing putting people off, and if they are deleted anyway, I don;t think it makes any diff if it's after they get to join. If they look around and like it, maybe they will rejoin in their own name, but is that possible if an account has already been rejected from that device? Can they come back with a real account and be allowed to play?
Quote ( Kirsty Ridley @ November 7th 2015,23:16:10 )
I get the waiting list thing putting people off, and if they are deleted anyway, I don;t think it makes any diff if it's after they get to join. If they look around and like it, maybe they will rejoin in their own name, but is that possible if an account has already been rejected from that device? Can they come back with a real account and be allowed to play?
Can we rename the topic to "Interview to Flow: we finally get to know what the hell she does in the site"? :P
We are working in improving support and communication so newbies DO HAVE a way to contact the Admins even if the account is closed. So, if the situation of a manager having 2 accounts and wanting to keep the one with the real name and closing the other arises, we'll be equipped to handle it accordingly once the system is fully in place. For now, Admins only have supportgpro.net to sort that, but the new system will bring easier ways to solve this issues and retain managers that want to play with only 1 account and respect the rules. For now, these cases are getting standard DA treatment in most cases.
In the last months I have detected many of these cases and dealt with them outside the DA system myself to avoid new managers get a bad impression when they do not know how the site works yet, and have higher chances that they stay in the site and play the game.
Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ November 7th 2015,23:09:33 )
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,23:07:11 )
BUT the rules have not been changed have they
You've just quoted it:
Quote ( Andrew Galica @ November 7th 2015,23:07:11 )
Note that in case when the groups structure of the game is under ongoing expansion or reduction, a different number of managers may be promoted or relegated in the different classes of the game.
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,23:11:07 )
It is bringing more managers to complete registration and activations steps, stay online, investigate/browse the site and start races. When Waiting list was in place all times, the bounce rate was higher and many managers left the site after realizing they had no activities to do.
For sure,
equally I'm sure that you can see that the "straight through system" also brings in more accounts (which are not necessarily more users)
And the longer the system is incomplete, the more there is work for mr. Shadow
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,23:11:07 )
Well, those are Shadow's problem and can't speak for him. But I can say that the signs that lead to a rejection at waiting list are still there after the account is approved, so Mr Shadow gets the "alert" he has work to do. And I know he does not like DAs, no matter if they are new or not :). Neither do I btw... I have certain tolerance to those jokish names, but my tolerance to DAs has always been ZERO.
well it does seem he's not doing the job. (per this thread)
has any of the accounts mentioned here been contacted or sorted in any other way ? or has rule 8.4 been abolished
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 7th 2015,21:49:24 )
I do check names and flags regularly and fix the ones I can. But I have not reported fake names to Shadow because in most cases of recently registered accounts it would lead to account closures BEFORE managers even get to try the game.
personally I've always thought that the immediate closure of the accounts is a bit harsh. Might be better to have a "standard pm" encouraging to use a proper name.
"use your name or mr. Shadow will come for a visit"
Florencia is right to say that the rules can change and be flexible, but if they are 'in the process of modification', then there must be some rules anyway, right? For example the old rules must be relevant while the new ones are being created.
Second thing, I might not be popular (while saying a populist thing haha) but am I the only one, who thinks that those fake accounts, as long as they increase the number of supporters (in other words the funds of the gpro) actually do good for the admins? I'm not fully into this supporter thing after all, but I smell some reluctancy to fight double/fake accounts because of the financial benefits for the owners of this website.
The second point must be viewed very softly, as I might be totally wrong and I certainly don'y wish to insult anyone to any degree, just some brainstorm-type points to bring into discussion.
Quote ( Lukas Kvietkauskas @ November 7th 2015,23:34:26 )
Second thing, I might not be popular (while saying a populist thing haha) but am I the only one, who thinks that those fake accounts, as long as they increase the number of supporters (in other words the funds of the gpro) actually do good for the admins? I'm not fully into this supporter thing after all, but I smell some reluctancy to fight double/fake accounts because of the financial benefits for the owners of this website.
There's also a flipside to that.
let's evaluate:
step 1) disallow discussing DA's step 2) allow DA's (during "testing" straight through registration) step 3) allow DA's providing all accounts are supporters - Creates advantage to supporters vs. non supporters step 4) introduce further competitive advantages for supporters and/or friends
ask Vlad what lead to GPRO being born :)
IMO Rule 8.4 has always been a cornerstone of GPRO, abolishing it (regardless of supporter or not) would be the first step towards doom.
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gpro.net to sort that, but the new system will bring easier ways to solve this issues and retain managers that want to play with only 1 account and respect the rules. For now, these cases are getting standard DA treatment in most cases. 
