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Forumi sondazh teme
Shall we send them back to Rookie?
Kyqu që të votosh ose për të parë rezultatet e sondazhit
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Temë: Top 3 Punishment in Elite |
349 përgjigje
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#271 Postuar 6 Janar 2017, 09:45:26 (Së fundi edituar 6 Janar 2017, 09:46:13 nga Max Watson)
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Citim
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Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ January 6th 2017,08:59:44 ) I don't want to be rude but all you and roland propose are things of which you lot will become better in the end.
That's not what Yannis was trying to do, Jimmy. The 'extra' sponsors he mentions don't have to be taken from the regular sponsor pool, nor do they have to appear there after a contract is finished/cancelled. They could be of a kind with the sponsors that are given to newly promoted managers.
Yannis and Roland are both extremely down-to-earth, and I believe they are genuinely interested in improving/balancing the game. To declare that they only post in their own interest is, I think, a case of seeing what you want to see rather than what's there.
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Quote ( Max Watson @ January 6th 2017,09:45:26 ) That's not what Yannis was trying to do, Jimmy. The 'extra' sponsors he mentions don't have to be taken from the regular sponsor pool, nor do they have to appear there after a contract is finished/cancelled. They could be of a kind with the sponsors that are given to newly promoted managers.
Max what use is it to get 2-3 sponsors giving you 4.5M as Iannis says if you lose them after first 2 races of the new season because you finish 30th or lower twice?
You would have gotten a max. of 10M for the season extra, do you really think that would make a difference?
Quote ( Max Watson @ January 6th 2017,09:45:26 ) Yannis and Roland are both extremely down-to-earth, and I believe they are genuinely interested in improving/balancing the game. To declare that they only post in their own interest is, I think, a case of seeing what you want to see rather than what's there.
The way it is proposed it just seems like that. and as mentioned above it is useless if you lose them after 2 races. If indeed they don't come available to all after cancellation and they stay for a season i would not have anything against it now it just seems useless.
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You questioned both the idea and the spirit in which it was offered. I understand your point about the former, but I was clarifying the latter.
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Fact is that none of their propositions makes others better the way they proposed it and that is what i am trying to say. Hence i would probably do the same if i was frontrunner.
Make sponsor progress dependable of sponsor expectations and player results and you would already get a much fairer battle in Elite. that and putting more sponsors available in elite.
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Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ January 6th 2017,09:57:43 ) Fact is that none of their propositions makes others better the way they proposed it and that is what i am trying to say. Hence i would probably do the same if i was frontrunner.
There's a very large difference between making a suggestion that needs fine-tuning to achieve its intended effect and making one that is self-serving.
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Quote ( Max Watson @ January 6th 2017,10:40:00 )
There's a very large difference between making a suggestion that needs fine-tuning to achieve its intended effect and making one that is self-serving.
True but they could have stated it that way and that is why i reacted that way.
Sorry it was your team mate i seemly offended :O
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Quote ( Sam Wainwright @ January 6th 2017,09:04:55 ) I just had a quick thought about Elite sponsors. It's early in the morning so it may be garbage: What if, in Elite, you keep your negotiation progress with a sponsor even if someone else signs it? Then, if you're still in Elite when they finish the contract, you can continue negotiating from the point you were at?
I also had the same idea in the past, don't remember if i had suggested it though...
I am not sure if you should start from the point you were at, (or from a given percentage of it e.g. 50% of the progress you have made but no more than 25% giving you the chance to answer again for first sponsor question)
generally interesting idea but need some thought of long-term concequences first
Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ January 6th 2017,09:57:43 ) Fact is that none of their propositions makes others better the way they proposed it and that is what i am trying to say.
the completely opposite mate, the completely opposite....
Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ January 6th 2017,09:50:09 ) what use is it to get 2-3 sponsors giving you 4.5M as Iannis says if you lose them after first 2 races of the new season because you finish 30th or lower twice?
1) you can't lose a sponsor in 2 races wherever you finish
2) if you constantly finish 20 or lower, you are doomed in whichever group you are racing at
3) of course extra sponsors will work at the same way as "promoter sponsors"
4) if i help managers who were about to finish 30th or lower that would not be a danger for myself.. and you are right that my proposition doesn't do that.. these managers hardly can turn things around no matter how good they are as managers.. the should better relegate and come back stronger
5) i want to help managers between places 5-15 fight with top managers. i want to see them buy expensive tyres and try to get into the top-5 spiral. i want to see vsevolod fight for the title again. i wanted all these seasons to see alexey manukalov get into the top and fight for the chamiponship also...
6) this will be a "danger" for me.. my idea will help such managers.. and these managers won't lose a sponsor easily
7) as far as i am concerned you can "trade" between contract value and safety as far as sponsr negotiations are concerned
8) we should find a way to balance elite without bringing new problems to lower categories
9) if you thing that for either roland or me success in the game is more important than game itself then i think you misjudge
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Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 6th 2017,10:43:09 )
1) you can't lose a sponsor in 2 races wherever you finish
3 then big difference isn't it. furthermore i bet there is more then a few who can tell you how wrong you are here. return to earth please.
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 6th 2017,10:43:09 )
2) if you constantly finish 20 or lower, you are doomed in whichever group you are racing at
2 randoms and you are f....
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 6th 2017,10:43:09 )
9) if you thing that for either roland or me success in the game is more important than game itself then i think you misjudge
That is what i get from your propositions.
Also helping people up until pos 15 isn't going to help any promoter does it?
What you are proposing is give the people finishing 5-15 at tne end of season x 4.5M sponsors at the start of sesaon Y. How does this help newly promoters? to finish in top 15? Answer it doesn't. on the contrary instead of seeing the same 5 at the top we would see the same 15 at the top. someone in master works 2-3 seasons to get a package for Elite and has 6-7M sponsors arrives in Elite to see that the ones from pos 5-15 4.5M sponsors for free how is that fair to them?
Edit this said i am against patrik's proposal of putting you in rookie too but what you are proposing is almost as bad.
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I don't think I've made any suggestions in this thread Jimmy? The only real suggestion I've ever had for Elite sponsors is a heavily progressive tax to reign in the sponsor income at the very top. That probably would benefit me now (so you got me.. :) ) but at the time my own sponsor income was ridiculously high. I also never claimed it's a suggestion that fully addresses the problem, I don't have one that does that.
It's a tough thing to solve, partly because the sponsor engine is a very unique part of the game. Partly because it works okay in all the other 450 groups so why change things there. And partly because everyone disagrees on the fine balance of opportunity between Elite retainers and Master promoters, which is affected by every other part of the game too.
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Quote ( Roland Postle @ January 6th 2017,15:30:42 ) It's a tough thing to solve
Indeed...
Without changing game engine....i stiil agree with this:
Quote ( Nuno Vicente @ July 30th 2016,01:01:27 )
For the promoters from Master:
A large increase at all Sponsors contracts, active and Ongoing negotiations (while staying in Elite) or receive a random ELITE sponsor for 17 races
For the retainers:
Lots of sponsors, Elite shoud be an oasys.
Elite sponsors shouldn´t leave Elite.
And with this also, because is even more dificult to keep them than to get them.
Quote ( Nuno Vicente @ November 18th 2016,18:24:09 ) Quote ( Roland Postle @ November 18th 2016,17:42:29 )
But when you look at the bigger picture it can't be right that there's so little movement at the top.
One reason for that is that sponsor´s don´t cancel the contracts with the top_6.
with diferent tyres is even most dificult to keep sponsors until the end of the contract, only top guys are able to do that.
IMO,sponsors should have even more pacience with the results, expecialy if the weather isn´t the right one for the tyres.
I think this would bridging the gap between the top and the others.....and if we wont to go a bit more further:
We could raise the price of BR tyres or even the top 3 tyres, to a price that only top guys could aford.....could aford it but with very Difficulty, so dificult that they couldn´t use them several consecutive seasons.
At this moment tyres are expensive to everyone except to top guys.
But most of the managers chose expensive tyres, because if they don´t they relegate.
New promoters have money to use them at least for the first season, so they chose them.
Next season Instead of being stronger, they are weaker, the money is gone before contracts with the elite sponsors that would allow competition can be achieved.
Then last season promoters are overcome by new promoters.
And we have a loop :)
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Sometimes I have time, as always. And as Pavlicek couldn't say a normal farewell speech.
Ioannis, my first feeling was that you're right.
Because of this:
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 5th 2017,23:01:03 ) He was informed about my shameful, despicable, scandalous, outrageous sponsor deals from his previous contract and was about to tell everything to the whole gpro community..
So he had to be paid well!!!
And this:
Quote ( Max Watson @ January 6th 2017,09:45:26 ) Yannis and Roland are both extremely down-to-earth, and I believe they are genuinely interested in improving/balancing the game. To declare that they only post in their own interest is, I think, a case of seeing what you want to see rather than what's there.
And most of your points sound quite convincingly.
But then came the second feeling:
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 6th 2017,10:43:09 ) i want to help managers between places 5-15 fight with top managers.
Instead of you, I wanna help all managers in all Pro and Master classes to get to the top 4 in Elite. And I will commit more actions if needed.
I have the majority.
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 6th 2017,10:43:09 ) 8) we should find a way to balance elite without bringing new problems to lower categories
Moreover, I think that Elite and lower categories are mutually connected. Since top 4 exists and since the majority of mid-pack alternates season by season.
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"And I will commit more actions if needed.
I have the majority."
Florencia, these sentences were reversed originally.
To be more exact: I AM WITH the majority.
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another dent in the already massive task of reaching elite to think once youre there its more than just an effort from any teams dedication to want to do well and ultimately succeed. If this is the case then everyone that isnt part of this "click" may aswell forget it,its unfair and personally thinking i dont want to bother trying to. Fact is its a game flaw that needs addressing somehow. how about instead of showing % of progress just have a thumbs down or thumbs up by sponsors according to youre last race meaning that theyre progress is either up or down from that race rather than a given amount,that way at least you can see youre progressing or degressing to any degree but cant see ultimate values.
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you could make the sponsors longer if you succeed to offset it but make actual progress output more hidden
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Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 5th 2017,22:00:22 ) Maybe I don't respect any people
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 5th 2017,22:00:22 ) If you don't like...never mind.
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 7th 2017,00:39:24 ) I will commit more actions if needed.
This attitude won't take you anywhere in a discussion. Never in the history of rhetoric the development was sort of A: "I think ...." B: "But I think... and I don't respect anybody... and if you don't like it" A: "Oh, yes, I was so completely wrong. Thanks, sir B".
A discussion isn't about trying to win by forcing other people to accept your point of view, especially if there isn't any rational proof whatsoever, and as an engineer student you should know that. A sensible discussion is about providing arguments so that other people convince themselves and everybody wins.
Even if I agreed with you with the supposed collusion thing, I would be far from arriving to any kind of settlement, not only because your Pipis for everybody idea is real collusion as opposed to your hypothetical sponsor collusion one, so it would be quite hypocritical, but also because I don't like any sort of artificial handicap for anybody, either a newcomer or an experienced frontrunner, and finally because despite most people have been very respectful with you, you have proved we can't expect reciprocity from you in that regards.
This is a pity, though, because maybe you're a skilled manager and an intelligent individual, I don't know, but definitely you lack of lot of personal qualities that would make of you a better person.
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Pipis would not be a disadvantage if everybody chose them.
I suspected maybe a bit lot, because I wanted to know more about this game.
Now, I know everything.
You can go where you want.
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Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 7th 2017,00:39:24 ) I wanna help all managers in all Pro and Master classes to get to the top 4 in Elite
So want to help 1200 managers get to the top 4 in Elite, and that's not taking in to account the other 36 Elite managers? Regardless of any changes, there are still only 4 spots at the top of Elite, and I'd fully expect the same group of people to occupy they spots on a regular basis.
Do some people forget that it shouldn't be easy to get to the very top? Anyone making it to that kind of level should have earned the right by being better than everyone else and not because those at that level are being handicapped to help the chasers catch them. Someone breaking in to the top 4 in Elite is a superb personal achievement in the game, and shouldn't be common or watered down by handicapping better managers.
I'm not saying the sponsor system is perfect, especially in Elite, and can see why discussion about changing it to be a better system could be warranted (not saying I agree or disagree - but I do understand) but to even contemplate punishing or handicapping the guys at the top just for being better than the rest is laughable. If (and that's a big "if") there are issues with the system, you look at changing the system and not punish those making the best of the system.
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+ Edwin:
Your personality skills were quite lacking to answer a simple fan letter. Or you don't speak the language of your home country?
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#289 Postuar 7 Janar 2017, 14:15:14 (Së fundi edituar 7 Janar 2017, 14:25:30 nga Josh Clark)
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Citim
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Haven't read the last 9 pages. Avoided this thread because I thought the premise of the OP was daft. But:
Newcomers to elite already get a free sponsor upon promotion - something consistent Elite frontrunners will never have the benefit of. There's your newcomers handicap.
Also the idea of there being a newcomer tyre sounds interesting. Like a faster, not-OBP tyre for discount price. 6,6,20°,6,4 Tyre for 4.5mil, only available in the first season of Elite.
But as Kevin said, why should the managers who put in the most effort have their success in jeopardy from even more uncontrollable circumstances. We already have randoms, we don't need more outside influence.
Of course there are negotiations at the top of elite regarding sponsors. Probably even extra-team discussions. With the current system it will happen regardless of punishment, but no matter what, the best managers will be at the top. Rather than punish a legal operation, change the system. Have you never watched Formula One? Don't remember Brawn's double decker diffusers?
E: or just wait for fuel suppliers and see how that spices things up.
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As I said, I'm not against changing the sponsor system.
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I see, some people still have doubts about what objectivity means. It doesn't require any respection.
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Quote ( Rocco Stallone @ January 4th 2017,23:28:07 ) My question is this:
Would this thread exist if you were in said top 3 and not in danger of being relegated?
Ok, my question would be:
Would this topic already exist if a GPRO-supporter creates it?
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Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 21st 2017,16:39:40 ) Would this topic already exist if a GPRO-supporter creates it? Ooo...its one of those "chicken or the egg" type things. :-)
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Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 21st 2017,16:39:40 ) Would this topic already exist if a GPRO-supporter creates it?
Obviously. If you buy sup credits.
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ January 7th 2017,12:07:39 ) So want to help 1200 managers get to the top 4 in Elite, and that's not taking in to account the other 36 Elite managers? Regardless of any changes, there are still only 4 spots at the top of Elite, and I'd fully expect the same group of people to occupy they spots on a regular basis.
Do some people forget that it shouldn't be easy to get to the very top? Anyone making it to that kind of level should have earned the right by being better than everyone else and not because those at that level are being handicapped to help the chasers catch them. Someone breaking in to the top 4 in Elite is a superb personal achievement in the game, and shouldn't be common or watered down by handicapping better managers.
I'm not saying the sponsor system is perfect, especially in Elite, and can see why discussion about changing it to be a better system could be warranted (not saying I agree or disagree - but I do understand) but to even contemplate punishing or handicapping the guys at the top just for being better than the rest is laughable. If (and that's a big "if") there are issues with the system, you look at changing the system and not punish those making the best of the system.
Well Kevin, I know you have certain rights to censure or even to delete my post.
However, I have an opinion and now I will tell it.
I can accept that these winners are the very best of this game. But in my opinion, they prove it too many times. It would be enough for me if they won every second season only.
The GPRO Staff made the income of sponsor system exponential, and you knew that the main problems here are with sponsors. But, instead of changing the sponsor system, you introduced this unrealistic driver energy to cover it. The sponsor campaign in Elite group forum started in March 2013, if I can search well; and since then you proved your unability to change it.
With driver energy, this is not the same game which I started to play 28 seasons ago.
About Pipis: since here is a strong competition; don't you think that, if 40 people from the same group gather and make a collusion at first of many, that group should be rewarded so much?
Especially, if they could decide obviously who should be that 15 people who will relegate in the end of the season.
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Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 22nd 2017,18:53:46 ) Well Kevin, I know you have certain rights to censure or even to delete my post.
However, I have an opinion and now I will tell it.
What the hell is that all about? I have never censored or deleted anything, ever, unless it breaks forum rules. No simple opinion has ever been censored and crap like that is downright out of order!
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 22nd 2017,18:53:46 ) I can accept that these winners are the very best of this game. But in my opinion, they prove it too many times. It would be enough for me if they won every second season only.
So winners should be artificially kept from winning again. We'll need to agree to disagree there. If they are the best that season, they should win. They should not be hampered just because they are the best.
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 22nd 2017,18:53:46 ) The GPRO Staff made the income of sponsor system exponential, and you knew that the main problems here are with sponsors. But, instead of changing the sponsor system, you introduced this unrealistic driver energy to cover it. The sponsor campaign in Elite group forum started in March 2013, if I can search well; and since then you proved your unability to change it.
You do realise that I am but a forum mod and absolutely nothing to do with the admin side of things? I'm not Vlad or Stefan so no idea why you keep accusing "me" of these things, because I shared my opinion (just like you shared yours).
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#297 Postuar 22 Janar 2017, 20:19:53 (Së fundi edituar 22 Janar 2017, 20:22:29 nga Jon Day)
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Citim
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Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 22nd 2017,18:53:46 ) I can accept that these winners are the very best of this game. But in my opinion, they prove it too many times. It would be enough for me if they won every second season only. So you want everyone to get a chance at being No1? Whats the point of that? Whether you like it or not, its a competition.
Many people have proven it can be done..Even against some of the true greats of this game. Which for me makes their victory all the more special and worthy of respect.
Nothing last forever. You just have to make sure you are in a position to take advantage of that fact, when it happens. :-)
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Quote ( Tim Sewell @ January 22nd 2017,20:22:02 ) I am beginning to think that this is the kind of racing he has in mind. Lol
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ January 22nd 2017,20:12:26 ) You do realise that I am but a forum mod and absolutely nothing to do with the admin side of things? I'm not Vlad or Stefan so no idea why you keep accusing "me" of these things, because I shared my opinion (just like you shared yours).
Establishment is Establishment.
The perception is that you have influence, even though you claim not to.
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