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Temë: Reducing game pyramid |
694 përgjigje
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#1 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 20:58:36 (Së fundi edituar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:04:21 nga Ivan Silva)
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Season 15 - Race 1:
Number of race participants: 7439
Pyramid structure (E/M/P/A): 1-4-16-64
Season 30 - Race 1:
Number of race participants: 10971
Pyramid Structure: 1-4-16-64
Season 41 - Race 1:
Number of race participants: 13313
Pyramid structure: 1-5-25-125
Season 63 - Race 1:
Number of participants: 7589
Pyramid structure: ...
You understand what i mean. GPRO was clearly increasing in number of players for about 40 seasons.
In season 33 Vlad announced the group expansion project to reach the current state and in my opinion it was good while the game was increasing the number of participants.
The game clearly peaked in Season 41 but after that the number of active players started to decrease progressively and now we have less participants than before the expansion, it would be fair for the pyramid structure to follow the same pattern in my opinion.
For me, one great example of the inbalance of the current system is the amateur structure in which you only have to keep a positive balance to retain. Back in the days when we last had 7k active managers we used to have competition for retention, call me old fashion but keeping such a large pyramid with the decreasing number of players is unhealthy for the overall game competitiveness.
I understand it was made so people wouldnt loose untrainable stats but we should encourage people to fight for the right to keep them, not give them a free pass to stay out of rookie.
About the inbalance in new players, i understand you want to give them a taste of winning early in the game but eventually there will be a time when races stop being on cruise mode and players who would demotivate early in rookie due to lack of results will demotivate by becoming amateur backpackers until they eventually decide to leave the game anyway.
Out of curiosoty, since Season 54 we actually have less rookies than amateurs racing.
I dont mean to be rude. I just think people need to accept the game is in decline. The pyramid was expanded when we were having more players, it should follow the same course now.
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#2 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:01:55
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Quote ( Ivan Silva @ February 5th 2018,20:58:36 ) Season 41 - Race 1:
Number of race participants: 13
Pyramid structure: 1-5-25-125
Pretty sure there were more than that in S41 ;)
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#3 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:02:51
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Ban all Egyptians!
Wait, different pyramid.
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#4 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:03:02
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season 41 race 1 was harsh time.... on a serious side the group expansion was good... for some time. now we have too much room for the rookies.
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#5 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:05:11 (Së fundi edituar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:07:07 nga Stuart Foster)
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I do support what Ivan is saying because I brought it up somewhere myself previously.
However, rather than just returning to the old system, I feel an alternative would be better.
For me either ;
1) 1-5-25-93-200
Which involves 4 promoting out of amateur every season so that the pyramid already in place above amateur is retained. I think it would be very hard/tough/difficult to scale down Master and Pro...plus the problem with players exists only in the bottom two tiers being imbalanced so my personal view is nothing should change above amateur. However, I do believe change IS needed in amateur.
2) Add a tier between amateur and pro.
I like the idea about this as it could potentially open up the game more so that more people can experience the full game (tyre suppliers/TDs)....however I'm not entirely sure how a pyramid would look with 6 level of play. I think people would feel it was overkill or just patching up the problem.
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#6 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:06:58
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It's either going back to old pyramid or adjusting OA. Markets do not have the right flow of drivers and TDs for each tier anymore. Though, OA adjustment can be dangerous if the number of players increases again, so I think old pyramid might be a better solution that allows another expansion later on, if needed.
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#7 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:08:07
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Jukka had something worked out previously around a re-expandable pyramind. Can't remember where the post was but it seemed a decent idea.
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#8 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:09:54
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Reduce group size to 35, with 2 promo/10 relegation per group.
Changing group size would be much easier to change back if participation returned to previous levels.
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#9 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:12:13
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We should bring Jukka back to play and make him suffer :P for Admins to understand that this is a real problem and not just a few managers not liking something I think :)
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we either have to agree here or have a new idea.... (oups Stuart was faster)
i think that the 1:5:25 pyramid worked well for pro and above as it gave opportunity to more managers try and reach master
however the step from amateur to pro is really big
this
1) helps some managers to build millions in amateur
2) makes other managers leave the game before they learn how to play
3) 125*40= 5000 managers fill amateur and as a result rookie is empty, one promotes to amateur before he really learn the game well enough
so my proposal
1) keep 1:5:25 order for pro and above
2) reduce amateur groups to 100 so that 4 promote from amateur (easier to get to pro), but 16 (regelate) easier to return to amateur
3) inrease rookie with about 25*40 = 1000 managers from amateur decreased number but also reduce groups so that more than 15 managers run in the same group constantly
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#11 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:23:23
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What Ioannis said but with 3 single tiers of Elite.
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#12 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:29:21
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Quote ( Michael Keeney @ February 5th 2018,21:23:23 ) What Ioannis said but with 3 single tiers of Elite.
Not liking or disliking the idea (maybe a matter for a different conversation), but how are you supposed to have enough staff for 3 full Elite tiers (120 managers) in the current situation.... or a slightly improved future situation?
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Quote ( Ivan Silva @ February 5th 2018,20:58:36 ) Out of curiosoty, since Season 54 we actually have less rookies than amateurs racing.
Its way before that if you add up the number of inactives in those rookie groups I think. Probably need to stretch back to something like S40 since Rookie had more people actually qualify for races than amateurs.
I think a Semi-Pro type league isn't such a bad idea. But....changes to driver OA would be needed - possibly something like rookie down to 80, amateur down to 100, Semi-Pro at 120 and Pro up to 140. No idea what the driver pools would be with those ranges tho.
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#14 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 21:45:12
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I've thought about this a lot and personally I don't think a wholesale reduction of the pyramid is the right answer but maybe part of a few changes that could be made. Instead of reducing the pyramid across the whole structure, how about this instead:
- Stop relegations from Amateur altogether. This means Rookie becomes an entry-level place of learning for newcomers only. It means Ama to Elite is then the 'real' game and Rookie is the introduction it was intended to be. It also solves the 'untrainables issue' where new players who play for a long time and then for some reason end up at the bottom of Amateur or in negative do not have to throw years of work away and also newcomers can progressively build these and rise to Elite. Treat anybody who finishes in negative in Amateur the same way as relegations (selling facilities, parts, etc.). Also add a rule where if you finish the previous season of Amateur in negative then you can only sign drivers up to a maximum of 100 OA the following season (and if your current driver has more than that on season reset he leaves, like relegation).
- Top 3 of Rookie promote no matter whether they have positive balance or not. No additional promo spots. If a promoter is in negative then as above, the same rules apply as relegation (sell facilities, parts, etc.), with the added 100 OA rule. This would kill super-Rookies and mean genuine Rookies can play and learn the game in an environment free from such people.
- Keep the game pyramid as it is for the most part but reduce the number of Rookie groups to 125 - and keep the number of Rookie groups the same as the number of Amateur groups in any future expansion. While we have 3 promos from Rookie and no Ama relegations use that growth in numbers to fill the Ama groups back to 38 again (I say 38 to leave room for returners, keep reading). Realistically some people will still get to Amateur and leave. Others higher up may also retire, etc. So growth would be slower than the 600 promoters per season. But eventually when the numbers get there we can begin expansion again.
- Returners to the game come back in Amateur with an L3 car, random driver, $30m, and the same staff/facilities, sponsor etc. as what is given to Rookies. Keep Rookie for real Rookies and newcomers. If we aim for each Ama group to start with 38 managers then it leaves 2 spots in each group (250 in total at present) for any returners to the game.
- Introduce Avonns as an optional tyre supplier for Amateur. Rookie would still be Pips-only but this would introduce some variation to the Amateur level and help ease the financial bubble of that level.
- Introduce higher tax brackets for the super-wealthy. Currently there is a tax rate of 25% for over $50m. Let's also have 50% for over $100m and 75% for over $150m. That would create a hard limit to how much wealth can be created by running around at the bottom of Ama without relegating.
With a structure like this we then have a dedicated level for newcomers to play against other newcomers and really get hooked on the game before coming up to the 'main' game structure. With the death of super-Rookies and returners from this level, it means the newcomers go up against other newcomers and so talent will shine over experience when it comes to promotion. In turn this means the managers who do promote should be in a situation where they can realistically compete in Amateur. Those who promote in negative will still get bored and leave the game once they get to Ama with a penalty and realise they can't compete but they are no longer there ruining genuine newcomers experiences. With no relegations from Ama managers don't have to worry about the totally demoralising situation throwing years of work away by relegating and seeing their untrainables go to 0 (tbh it's pretty much already like that but this is a good thing). The introduction of another tyre supplier and new levels of taxes will help control the money hoarding that would inevitably worsen in Amateur with a structure like this, again meaning newcomers can come in and compete and therefore stick around. But at the same time, the learning curve isn't shortened, the game still remains the challenge it always was, it's just that being a part of the game for longer now counts a little less.
Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm sure almost every manager has their own opinion on this but just thought I'd share mine :)
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#16 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 22:05:07 (Së fundi edituar 5 Shkurt 2018, 22:07:04 nga Sam Norris)
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1-5-25-75-100-Whatever number Rookie demands
Intermediate is badly needed between ama and pro. Adding tyre choice means more ppl can experience that side of the game like Stuart said.
I think rookie reset managers or any super rookies should be put into their own separate rookie groups away from any new or young players.
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#17 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 22:14:28
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Quote ( Florencia Caro @ February 5th 2018,21:29:21 ) Quote ( Michael Keeney @ February 5th 2018,21:23:23 )
What Ioannis said but with 3 single tiers of Elite.
Not liking or disliking the idea (maybe a matter for a different conversation), but how are you supposed to have enough staff for 3 full Elite tiers (120 managers) in the current situation.... or a slightly improved future situation?
I just want Elite to be the best of the best. No disrespect to some of the participants minus the DAs but Elite just isnt the best of the very best. Seeing the class of the likes of Islentiev relegating kind of justified this for me. People are retaining purely on drivers or cash.
I know the argument would be they deserve it and thats a fair comment.
My theory on 3 tiers of elite is that Elite 1 or equivalent would be the very very best of GPRO. Dont get me to explain the semantics because I havent a clue but im sure Vlad and Jukka could make it work.
I do like the idea of making Amateur more competitive. This will stop people retaining while running 20+ all season.
Amateur is just full of sandbagging these days. I know 90% of them managers go nowhere as they havent learned the game well enough and think money is the answer. We know its not long term.
However some managers may have resigned themselves that their longterm plan is purely reaching Elite. Burning all their resources promoting from Master. Only for them to realise how tough or boring Elite can be.
Its certainly not easy but anything to make Rookie and Amateur competitive.
1 suggestion I would make is to not to delete untrainables straight away when someone retires but perhaps they lose their untrainables per missed race. This way players would be inclined to return. However the previous untrainables only kick in once they promote back out of Rookie.
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#18 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 22:14:54
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What Stephen said sounds really good to me, maybe we can discuss about the number here Quote ( Stephen Bewers @ February 5th 2018,21:45:12 ) Returners to the game come back in Amateur with an L3 car, random driver, $30m, and the same staff/facilities, sponsor etc. as what is given to Rookies. Keep Rookie for real Rookies and newcomers. If we aim for each Ama group to start with 38 managers then it leaves 2 spots in each group (250 in total at present) for any returners to the game.
And I suggest to introduce a brand new tyre instead of Avonns, with a different skill set but still good ideas.
I agree with you.
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#19 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 22:40:33
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You still have not addressed what I asked you about Michael :/. How do you manage enough staff while the immediate lower tier is almost as big as Elite? Do you at least see the potencial problem in there, and how the full Elite tier (120 managers) would be struggling with Master level staff, not being competitive at all?
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#20 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 22:47:18
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Michael is right but the reason why that is the way it is lies in the big gulf between ama and pro. I really think everyone behind the scenes does need to do SOMETHING with this alongside when they launch the new race engine. It would make it a full GPRO 2.0 relaunch and would be a great time to win back old players and advertise to many new ones.
HERE IS MY BEST EFFORT - Adding INTERMEDIATE tier
Change Pro to just 10 relegating, so 250 go from Pro to Int. 75 groups of 30 Intermediate managers, 3 promotions plus 25 fastest overall, so 250 go from Int to Pro.
Have 4 relegating from Int, so 300 go from Int to Ama. 100 groups of 30 Amateur managers, 3 promotions so 300 go from Ama to Int.
Have number of Amateur relegation's based on how many rookie promotions you need.
1000 managers in Pro. 4125 managers in ama now, would be 3000 ama, and 2250 intermediates, easy to make up shortfall with more rookie promotions into the new easier ama.
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#21 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:19:04
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Sam, there's still a Pro group in your suggestion right? Ama - Intermediate - Pro?
Your calculation at the bottom does not include those users.
Where are the additional 1000 users taken from? Rookie?
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#22 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:23:21
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Keeney, 3 elite groups?
You're already moaning about too many DAs in Elite (do let me know which please), and want to triple the size of that tier so the likes of Islentiev won't relegate. Going by your logic, more DAs and average managgers will reach Elite in that way. All to make sure Islentiev retains?
How does that even solve any of the problems you're having?
On top of that, how would the "Elite 1" you mention work? Is that an Elite on top of two other Elites? If not, how do "the best of the best" end there, and not in Elite 2 or 3...
Mighty confused.
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#23 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:24:53 (Së fundi edituar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:27:39 nga Sam Norris)
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Yes Miel, no change to Pro levels so stays as 1000. The 1125 shortfall i mentioned could be managed by zero ama relegations and more rookie promotions.
I did not word that very clearly sorry. The reason i wanted to state 1000 managers in Pro in that paragraph was to illustrate the greater balance this gives
So current 1000>4125
Mine 1000>2250>3000
ps - i think i have won the thread :P
pps- yep ignore Keeney he knows not what he does lol, jk, but the sentiment to make elite the real elite is right. I just think my way achieves the same result by tightening up the other tiers.
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I don't think more promotions from Rookie will help in any way. Nor will increasing the number of users in Ama/Pro (or Ama/Int/Pro in your suggestion).
Expanding the top tier as Keeney suggests, also don't think that'd help in any way.
Lastly, i'm just not sure expanding the amount of tiers will solve anything, rather than just shifting the issue.
I do like Stephen's suggestion of having Rookie leagues for real newbies, and let returning managers (whether through reset or rekindled interest) stream into Ama.
Something needs changing in the pyramid, but i think most of the suggestions given are overthinking it. A simple tweak or cut down of group counts would already balance it out i reckon, and coupled with some of Stephen's suggestions, that may actually suffice.
The trick is to have something that can adapt easily (easier than it seems now). Some mentions of a Jukka suggestion in that direction. Which, where? Gimme!
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#25 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:40:55
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Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ February 5th 2018,23:31:44 )
I don't think more promotions from Rookie will help in any way.
No Miel, that would just be for the 1st season and balancing out the numbers.Quote ( Sam Norris @ February 5th 2018,22:47:18 ) Have number of Amateur relegation's based on how many rookie promotions you need.
Since I have no idea how many real rookies would be left, currently there are 200 groups of about 34 managers. Id tighten it up to groups of 20-25 and have a similar amount 3-4 promoting.
Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ February 5th 2018,23:31:44 ) Nor will increasing the number of users in Ama/Pro (or Ama/Int/Pro in your suggestion).
Rookie resets, those 'rookies' that currently languish in ama will have a better chance to improve in an easier ama tier, since many super ama cash builders (like myself) will instead be in Intermediate.
Changes are 125 less Pro managers relegating. If you are good enough to get to Pro you should not have to race with managers who are just up from Rookie. It is bad for the game. 75 less managers promote from Ama. BUT... a whole new tier means there are 50 more groups, more points scored, more podiums, more wins, more interest.
current vs mine (pro-ama vs pro-int-ama)
150 groups vs 200 groups
375 relegating vs 550 relegating
375 promoting vs 550 promoting
Thanks for replying btw, i literally have all the answers so keep the questions coming ;)
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#26 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:48:58
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Quote ( Stephen Bewers @ February 5th 2018,21:45:12 ) - Stop relegations from Amateur altogether. This means Rookie becomes an entry-level place of learning for newcomers only.
I doubt this will stop super-rookies, we'll just see more throw-away accounts re-starting in Rookie promoting and then retiring, which will be more damaging to both Rookie and Amateur, and perceptions of the integrity of the game as a whole. And if untrainables being reset is a reason not to have relegations to rookie then why not just reset everything else except untrainables?
I think rookie, reset of accounts in rookie, and the threat of relegation to rookie are all important to achieve a functioning amateur level. Otherwise 80% of the players aren't in an actual competitive game, it's just people taking varying amounts of time to prepare their accounts for the real game.
Quote ( Michael Keeney @ February 5th 2018,22:14:28 ) My theory on 3 tiers of elite is that Elite 1 or equivalent would be the very very best of GPRO.
If we really want to know who's the best I propose a slow paced or occasional private league(s) where only Elite champions can race, or some other criteria like 'has ever reached Elite' which might involve a multi-group structure.
I think a tall thin pyramid top would (in addition to the driver/TD problem Flo mentions) just start to test people's patience and luck more than skill.
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#27 Postuar 5 Shkurt 2018, 23:51:42
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My theory in Elite tiers would be to bring driver OAs to them levels.
Incorporate lvl 8 and 9 parts. Bigger grind to make Elite 1 from Elite 3. Finding a way to weed out the less prepared managers. Ie managers who dont work on their whole package.
Its not just for Islentiev miel and you know that.
I just want to see the very best managers stay towards the top and more often not they will. However they usually have to go back to Master or lower. Kotov is doing it currently.
Elite is tough to stay in once youve burned your cash. Mainly because a manager wasnt prepared enough. However any manager not prepared enough shouldnt in my opinion be able to make Elite. If you introduce 3 tiers then these managers will not make it past Elite 3. Leaving Elite 1 and 2 for the very best of the best. Less chance for top class managers be trumped due to cash, driver moti, sponsors income to trump them.
Managers are promoting having a season or 2 of success and dropping. However a lot of these are inferior managers imo and taking valuable slots up for top class managers who havent the opportunity to retain and push on in Elite. The mid pack Elites are forced to drop down. I want to see an end to it.
I dont have all the answers of course but if thats the direction Vlad wanted to take the game there is plenty of options open to him. As highlighted above.
I fully agree something has to be done about rookie to ammy and ammy to pro. I previously mentioned in this thread about what to do with untrainables etc.
In regards to the DA issue. Ive not fully inspected Elite this season. Too busy worried about my own shambles of a situation im in. However in previous seasons there has been a multitude of DAs backed up by silly amounts in master and in pro.
However shadow is not prepared to do any kind of digging.
Im sure youre well aware of my agenda when it comes to DAs. They suck donkey balls basically. The punishments for having DAs simply isnt severe enough to deter managers. So if thats the games stance then we will never counter them.
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#28 Postuar 6 Shkurt 2018, 00:10:39
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Introducing another intermediate tier wouldn't do any good in my opinion. Actually, it would make things even worse with regards to stability. The mechanics we have seen from lately have been mostly based on strong sponsorship building in Amateur. That has given great chances (too great, in my opinion) to some managers who have built amazing backup there. Even if you argue that's a good mechanism so to give people a chance vs. the frontrunners' advantages in Elite, there are collateral issues as a consequence.
After all, I think we can all agree Ammy is a great place to hoard cash and sponsorship, whereas the higher leagues not so much. Hence, Pro and Master are mostly leagues where an Elite candidate must pass through as quickly as possible, before his reserves are depleted and money taxes bite too hard (although the latter isn't that crucial). I don't agree with that gameplay mechanic, but, again, this is not the point here. The thing is, if we add an intermediate league with Michael's intention of producing another barrier for Elite candidates, a kind of a filter, that doesn't address the fact that if we consider those intermediate leagues (Pro, Master and the new proposed one) as sponsorship/cash depletion barriers (and rightly so), but we still want to keep the hoarding in Ammy to aim for Elite gameplay alive, by definition we need to keep Pro, Master and the new league as hard leagues to be for undefinite tenure.
I don't agree with that conception of a gameplay: sacrificing people in the intermediate leagues for the sake of deweaponizing Ammy guys. Heck, whereas I don't like the current state, I would even dislike it further if a new intermediate league is created so to solve a perceived issue while harming an even broader spectrum of managers in the meanwhile. I stand by my position that Ammy grew too overpowered, but I wouldn't try to solve that with Michael's approach.
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#29 Postuar 6 Shkurt 2018, 00:31:21
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I Kinda like Keeneys idea. (see, there is a first time for everything!)
how would it work though...... All 3 elite tiers receive the same money?
Promotions? Demotions?
maybe.....
Tier 1 elite gets the winner of each of 4 master groups and tier 3 elite, and the top 2 from tier 2 and demotes the same number all to tier 2 (7 managers)
Tier 2 gets each 2nd place Master finisher, the places 2 and 3 from tier 3, the demotions from tier one, promotes 2 to tier 1 and demotes the remainder to tier 3 (11 managers)
Tier 3 gets all 3rd place master managers and demotions from tier 2, promotes 1 to tier 1, 2 to tier 2 then demotes the remainder to Master
good job such a system wouldn't be too complicated
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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#30 Postuar 6 Shkurt 2018, 00:57:05
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Quote ( Ivan Silva @ February 5th 2018,20:58:36 ) For me, one great example of the inbalance of the current system is the amateur structure in which you only have to keep a positive balance to retain. Back in the days when we last had 7k active managers we used to have competition for retention, call me old f
Sorry but I have to disagree with this premise, I will not go in to detail as it is a matter of fact that you are incorrect with your "assumption". One only has to look at the statistics to see the truth that a positive balance is not a guarantee to retain in Amateur .
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