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Temë: [F1] 2019 German Grand Prix |
77 përgjigje
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 28th 2019,20:43:49 ) Realistically Hamilton did the only thing that made sense. Going around 1 more lap, potentially dropping debris, driving unsafely with a damaged car, he would've only put himself and other drivers at risk. And had he tried to go around the bollard, that would be going backwards on an F1 circuit, which is an instant disqualification.
There is nothing better he could've done, so the penalty imo was a bit stupid. It's not about him potentially gaining an advantage, it's about literally every other option being worse for everyone.
Quote ( Niek Nijboer @ July 28th 2019,22:00:44 ) Hamilton had a massive advantage by cutting the pitlane entry.
I agree that Hamilton did best choice he could of done at that moment... Debris or not I don't think he was thinking... it has been done in past by other drivers as well... So even knowing he was not supposed to do this and toke the risk and got to pit asap... Not that it helped him... he was there for 50 sek and adding that 5 sek penalty on top of that... I don't think he got any advantage and any bigger penalty would of been pointless.
He made a mistake... He toke a risk he got penalty for it. Not a Hamilton fan but in this situation can't blame him.
Quote ( Upeo Unaozidi @ July 28th 2019,22:37:13 ) If he would have raced the entire lap, he wouldn't have score those two WC points. So he did benefit of it. Therefore giving him a penalty of just five seconds wasn't enough. IMHO. Again his entering the pit was suprise... his stop took 50 sek he got penalty... That all changed totally his strategy... They did not take him in cause of his penalty so when he finally did he lost even more time... Did you people even see the race??? He was last and safety car was out many times so he would of actually won time iif he would of made that lap...
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To speak about the race...
It had lot's of changes and surprises so full lottery. You could have one of those races in a season maybe... but I would not say it was best ever race... I liked more those wheel to wheel races like those last 2 races(Austrian, British).
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#63 Postuar 29 Korrik 2019, 13:36:32
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This reminded me of the European GP from 1999. I loved it!
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* VER - Winning by making less mistakes! To finish first, first one has to finish! Majestic!!!
* VET - Very similar to Max, well driven and executed, gained back some credit in a mistake filled season so far!
* KVY - A new born father flying around on Red Bull Wings! Also, well done!!!
* STR - Who would have thought this dude doing well in the wet, respect!
- LEC - Making a lot of puppy mistakes as Max once did. No issues there but the joke is on the team fine for to the unsafe release. In comparison with VER in Monaco (losing podium, 2 point on his license), it's unjust and a bending of rules in favour of Ferrari. The fine to the team in itself is low (IMHO) but justified, however the rule should be the same for all during the whole season. MAybe it would have been better to do this from the start of the new season.
- HUL - WHY did he lock his wheels?!? Granted, not much of a chance but keeping the car rollong might have just gotten him through like HAM was able to ...
- BOT - Again creating that gap to enable a 1-2 stop for MERC, this has to be addressed for future seasons ... Then his slidder in the same spot, yet his spin was not as well executed as the one HAM did, just saying ...
- HAM - Never seen him make so many mistakes in one race ... Not the first time he messed up on the pit entry either! He definitly got away very easy with just a 5 sec penalty. The fact thet MERC messed up the stop should have no effect on his penalty, that was simply due to HAM coming in rather unexpectedly ...
- PER - well ... nuf said ...
- GAS - Though Marko meanwhile stated the RB line-up will stay unchanged for the remainder of the season, I'm pretty sure he will not have a seast for next season unless he will have a tremendous turn-around in the races untill end of the season. It's simple, not scoring enough points for the team championship, if he did, RB would have been 2nd in the team standing easily by now
In short a fun filled race with many many things to discuss,
- Some pilots doing well beyond what most of us would have expected from them.
- Some pilots again not performing up to par
- Again inconsistancy in penalties handed out ...
And Gunther Steiner still having a freaking BIG head-ache which I think might well speed up Ocon's comeback onto the grid ...
Just my piece of mind ..
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ July 29th 2019,22:42:34 ) * VER - Winning by making less mistakes! To finish first, first one has to finish! Majestic!!!
- LEC - Making a lot of mistakes
- HAM - Never seen him make so many mistakes in one race
Verstappen spun off twice just like Hamilton and Leclerc, the only difference is he didn't do it at the penultimate corner where the runoff was slippery as ice. Fair play to him but it's a bit silly to call it "majestic", it wasn't exactly the best race he's ever driven.
The only ones with clean races were I think Vettel, Kvyat and Albon.
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#66 Postuar 29 Korrik 2019, 22:58:09
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 29th 2019,22:50:48 ) Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ July 29th 2019,22:42:34 )
* VER - Winning by making less mistakes! To finish first, first one has to finish! Majestic!!!
- LEC - Making a lot of mistakes
- HAM - Never seen him make so many mistakes in one race
Verstappen spun off twice just like Hamilton and Leclerc, the only difference is he didn't do it at the penultimate corner where the runoff was slippery as ice...
The only ones with clean races were I think Vettel, Kvyat and Albon.
Hence my rematk on LESS mistakes ... only one 360 spin though and a bad start (true, yet again)
Funny, how you pick up on just a few lines here but I agree on your remark on VET, KVY and ALB
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#67 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 00:04:42
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Real nice race, but like Martti I enjoyed previous two more racing wise. This was more like a festival of (understandable) mistakes aka a lottery; spectacular but I rather see nice clean overtakes than crashes (except the blown engine by RIC perhaps... that has been a long long time ago!)
Yet I think 2 drivers of 2 top teams have put their seat on the line for 2020 if not earlier;
- First of all of course Gasly. He's just not just being outperformed by VER all season; he's being humiliated. But outside that on Hockenheim he was overtaken by inferior cars far more than once (excl start) and without much of a fight before making an unforgiveable mistake loosing his FW resulting in a puncture and DNF... If I think so, Dr. Marko certainly will. To be continued...
- Second is Bottas. He's in a car that dominated most of the season. Yet het couldn't overtake Stroll for quite some laps before ending in a race finishing spin lining up to overtake finally... At least his race engineer had faith in him right before the previous safety car release saying all he had to do was overtake VER immediately... (who already had responded with 'hehe, Bottas... broadcasted on Dutch television right after last season....)
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#68 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 00:15:22 (Së fundi edituar 30 Korrik 2019, 00:20:43 nga Kyle Morris)
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Either Red Bull have built a car to suit Max and not Gasly, or Gasly just hasnt settled. It wouldn't surprise me if they swap him and Albon at the end or even maybe Kvyat who has proven himself to be worthy again, which I had doubts about
Bottas' situation is hard. He hasnt gotten the best out of the Mercedes like Hamikton has these past 3 seasons. He has shown glimaces of 2014 earlier this season but since Spain he hasnt performed well enough. Wolff wants Ocon in a seat and the only option for him is Williams if it isnt the Mercedes which wont please either party, but Bottas is too quick to just let go. It looks like one of them 2 might be without a seat next season. Only place with 2 places at least potentially is Haas
Anyway credit where credit is due, while Kvyat and Stroll got fortunate you have to keep it on the island and you have to be in the right place at the right time which their teams were, Verstappen has seriously matured this season into title contender, all this talk about Hamilton vs Bottas but Verstappen is only 20 behind Bottas with momentum, Albon has been a huge surprise and proved it once again this race, Sainz is a changed man at McLaren, nice to see Williams finally score with their dog, and Kubica considering where he was 8 years ago
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Quote ( Martti Kaasik @ July 29th 2019,12:28:46 )
Quote ( Upeo Unaozidi @ July 28th 2019,22:37:13 )
If he would have raced the entire lap, he wouldn't have score those two WC points. So he did benefit of it. Therefore giving him a penalty of just five seconds wasn't enough. IMHO. Again his entering the pit was suprise... his stop took 50 sek he got penalty... That all changed totally his strategy... They did not take him in cause of his penalty so when he finally did he lost even more time... Did you people even see the race??? He was last and safety car was out many times so he would of actually won time iif he would of made that lap...
Yes we have seen the race, but I doubt if you have. If my laptime is 1min20sec with a perfect car and driving full gas. How much time do you think I need on a semi wet track without frontwing ?
Eeeeeeuuuuuh, yes indeed far more then those 50 seconds you mention. I would say about two and a half or three minutes indeed. ;)
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#70 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 00:56:38
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Quote ( Upeo Unaozidi @ July 30th 2019,00:26:23 ) Quote ( Martti Kaasik @ July 29th 2019,12:28:46 )
Eeeeeeuuuuuh, yes indeed far more then those 50 seconds you mention. I would say about two and a half or three minutes indeed. ;)
Basic laws of physics disagree with you. You're really clutching at straws throughout this discussion...
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#71 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 01:18:16 (Së fundi edituar 30 Korrik 2019, 01:44:47 nga Jay De Snoo)
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Quote ( Kyle Morris @ July 30th 2019,00:15:22 ) or Gasly just hasnt settled
RB is known not to privilege any driver (too much e.g. only if just one part is available perhaps) let alone build a car around one. I don't see why it would be any different this season and there haven't been rumors on it either. Prior to the seaon I really thought GAS would be an oustanding replacement for RIC, perhaps making it VER even more challenging, but no... Outqualifyed by far almost every race (with the exception of special circumstances) and a no show by GAS during races except Silverstone.
Quote ( Kyle Morris @ July 30th 2019,00:15:22 ) but Bottas is too quick to just let go.
He's quick but his attacks are almost non existential since driving in a Merc (common you've got to get passed a FI withing 3 laps (make that 1-2) in a Merc! (Certainly right after a safety car) and his defense is substantially lacking (which was exactly the reason for the 'hehe' on him from VER during an in and after Abu Dhabi interview reviewing last season).
Although misplaced at the time, the agression Ocon showed in Brazil suits more what is needed than Bottas has ever shown in a Mercedes. Especially with young dogs like LEC and VER in competitor teams. Decent F1 driver, but even Grosjean and Stroll are decent F1 drivers IMO...
EDIT: and Im certainly not an Ocon fan (which has nothing to do with that incident) but I rather see either Occon or Russel in the 2nd Merc seat in 2020 than decent but dull Bottas.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 30th 2019,00:56:38 ) Quote ( Upeo Unaozidi @ July 30th 2019,00:26:23 )
Quote ( Martti Kaasik @ July 29th 2019,12:28:46 )
Eeeeeeuuuuuh, yes indeed far more then those 50 seconds you mention. I would say about two and a half or three minutes indeed. ;)
Basic laws of physics disagree with you. You're really clutching at straws throughout this discussion...
No Jasper the only clutching here is you. I hear a lot of noice and presumptions but no proof of anything. I think Upeo is not far of here. A lap on a semi wet track without frontwing will indeed cost you a lot more time then a normal lap with a perfect car.
Since you think to know everything, please explain us noobs how much time it will cost you to do such a lap ?
So winning time when driving the whole lap without frontwing is just bullsh*t mate.
Basic laws of physics disagree with that ! 🤣🤣🤣
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#73 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 11:01:01
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 30th 2019,00:56:38 ) Quote ( Upeo Unaozidi @ July 30th 2019,00:26:23 )
Quote ( Martti Kaasik @ July 29th 2019,12:28:46 )
Eeeeeeuuuuuh, yes indeed far more then those 50 seconds you mention. I would say about two and a half or three minutes indeed. ;)
Basic laws of physics disagree with you. You're really clutching at straws throughout this discussion...
Well Jasper, please explain us what basic law of physics are telling us then ?
Doing a lap without frontwing means that you practically stand still when you enter each corner, and you can't step on the gas pedal coming out of those corners, because you would spin around.
I tried this out about ten times in a F1 simulation programm, (something you should try maybe before start talking about basic laws of physics.), and it will always at least double the normal laptime. So if a normal lap time is about 1 minute and 20 seconds, it will take you 2 minutes and 40 seconds at least to do it without frontwing.
But maybe you guys in Belgium have other laws of physics ? Please feel free to explain us how much time it would take me to do a lap on the Hockenheim track without frontwing. And to explain us why this is by laws of physics ....
I am very curious about your explanation, and please don't try to change the subject. Just answer the question. What would be my laptime without frontwing on a semi wet Hockenheim track ?!
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Alex Albon lost his entire front wing in the first corner in Canada. By the end of lap 2 he was 40 seconds behind the midfielders and that is including his pit stop and front wing replacement. The pit stop (including time lost in pit lane) would have taken more than 20 seconds, so his lap time loss for doing the whole lap without a front wing was less than 20 seconds. I invite you to find a real world example where someone lost 80 seconds in one lap just because of having no front wing, as you claim. I tell you you won't find any, because the claim is completely unrealistic.
But then, Hamilton didn't lose his whole wing, he only lost half of it. Both wing mounting points were intact so most likely he would have gone around the lap with half of the wing still doing its job. This would reduce his time loss.
The track was wet which makes aerodynamics less important than when it's dry. That's because speeds are reduced, which reduces aerodynamic forces, and the proportion of aerodynamic grip versus mechanical grip decreases. This would reduce his time loss even further.
Meanwhile, race leaders were going 30 seconds slower than normal pace because of the safety car (lap times went from about 1m33s to 2m05s)
So there is every reason to think that Hamilton would have completed that lap at the same pace as the others, because they were going at safety car speed.
Then the pit crew would have been waiting for him with a new front wing and correct tyres, completing his stop in 15 seconds instead of 50. So there's 35 seconds to be gained.
The most likely scenario if Hamilton had stayed out is that he would still be n the lead when entering the pits, but Verstappen would pass him in the pits as the Merc crew replaced Hamilton's front wing. That would mean Hamilton would be in 2nd place at that time (instead of 4th behind Bottas and Albon).
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#75 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 14:48:25
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Quote ( Upeo Unaozidi @ July 30th 2019,11:01:01 ) I tried this out about ten times in a F1 simulation programm, (something you should try maybe before start talking about basic laws of physics.), and it will always at least double the normal laptime. So if a normal lap time is about 1 minute and 20 seconds, it will take you 2 minutes and 40 seconds at least to do it without frontwing.
That is absolutely not true.
And the car doesn't "stand still entering each corner", and the last thing you need to worry about without a front wing is grip under acceleration. The worst bit is understeer through fast corners, and then braking distance is increased, but as far as negatives go that's about it. It's actually quite hard to spin out without a front wing due to the extreme understeer. But it is nowhere near as bad as you say it is. On a track like Hockenheim where there are really only 4 high-speed corners which could cost you multiple seconds, and the rest probably not costing you any more than 1 second, I doubt the lap time would even be 20 seconds slower. Let alone 1 minute 20 seconds. I think perhaps you need to find a better simulator.
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#76 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 15:35:33
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I still think Hamilton did the right thing. I just think the punishment did not fit the crime. He benefited greatly from breaking the rules and deserved more than a 5 sec slap on the wrists... a drive thru would have been more appropriate
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#77 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 16:11:40
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That is the point isn't it?
If you can, separate the fan aspect and finger pointing from the facts, then a fair assessment is Hamilton got off lightly. The Stewards screwed up, period.
Maybe the guy that replaced Mr. Whitting is a jerk with his opinion 'being the right one'... We've all worked with one, right?
I'm not a crash chaser but I did enjoy the changes in the race to be exciting.
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#78 Postuar 30 Korrik 2019, 16:18:37
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In my opinion the penalty is undeserved. Why would it be safer in any circumstance to go the wrong way in order to get past the bollard, or alternatively do another lap at a much slower delta? Both have the potential to cause quite nasty collisions. Surely a fine or points on his licence would have been enough?
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