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Onderwerp: How to make Elite a better place? |
475 antwoorden
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now that we all know so much about this, why there is still change needed???
everyone has the chance to get an experienced or future high experienced driver.
as it was pointed out, that there are a lot of them(spec. future ones) on market.
this making "all equal" shit reminds me at actual economic situation, people sitting on the sofa and complaining about others who "have improved"
it was a decission to made, going for an experienced driver.
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 4th 2012,23:50:57 )
now that we all know so much about this, why there is still change needed???
everyone has the chance to get an experienced or future high experienced driver.
as it was pointed out, that there are a lot of them(spec. future ones) on market.
Because as we've pointed out quite a few times, no one can promote from master and be competitive with the same driver. If you come up from master with a ~400exp driver then you will have relatively low talent/stamina/aggression for OA reasons. If you com e up with good stamina/aggression/talent then you'll also have ~200-250 exp max
It's simply a maths thing. It is impossible to promote from master with a driver that is not 3 seasons of training away from decent elite level. When he reaches elite level, if you still have him you will be bankrupt.
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 4th 2012,23:50:57 )
now that we all know so much about this, why there is still change needed???
everyone has the chance to get an experienced or future high experienced driver.
as it was pointed out, that there are a lot of them(spec. future ones) on market.
I would like to know what will be your opinion if you reach Elite ....
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Quote ( Sion Francis @ January 4th 2012,23:56:48 )
Because as we've pointed out quite a few times, no one can promote from master and be competitive with the same driver. If you come up from master with a ~400exp driver then you will have relatively low talent/stamina/aggression for OA reasons. If you com e up with good stamina/aggression/talent then you'll also have ~200-250 exp max
i really would like to foby this,
also you now pointing out that it is a disadvantage. all other said it is an unfair advantage??
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 4th 2012,23:58:36 )
also you now pointing out that it is a disadvantage. all other said it is an unfair advantage?
It is in elite; it's not everywhere else because every other group is OA limited. (and OA limits mean there's an inherent pace limit....you mihght or might not argue that there is an optimal way to spread those OA points about and you might or might not think that huge exp is the best way to do that, but for every OA limited group how you go about getting the fatest/best driver is not categorically clear).
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 4th 2012,23:58:36 )
all other said it is an unfair advantage??
only long term in elite is what I interpret.
::Edit Sion much faster :S
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 4th 2012,23:58:36 )
i really would like to foby this,
You can easily foby this by looking at driver stats of some of the Elite managers.
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Quote ( Michael Winkley @ January 4th 2012,20:49:46 )
It is probably about time that the equation for calculating driver OA was changed in order to better reflect the importance of some of the attributes. Obviously that would lead to some unusual situations within groups, so I propose that a grace period, of say 2 seasons, is introduced where both equations run side by side for the purpose of OA limits and contract extensions etc. I figure that it could lead to a different type of driver preference in the longer term.
Ok, slightly off topic, but meh whatever.
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Quote ( Nuno Vicente @ January 4th 2012,23:56:50 )
I would like to know what will be your opinion if you reach Elite ....
100%
thats my whole point, thats the reason why i am playing this game.
i really dont need to get snatched this, because of some "Pro-wanna be elite super smart guys" talking about it(without any experience).
i am playing this to have fun, try it this way and fail, try harder the other way and fail also-thats fun.
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:04:54 )
i am playing this to have fun, try it this way and fail, try harder the other way and fail also-thats fun.
Yup, thats my recipe too. :)
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:04:54 )
i am playing this to have fun, try it this way and fail, try harder the other way and fail also-thats fun. Totally agree.
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:04:54 )
i am playing this to have fun, try it this way and fail, try harder the other way and fail also-thats fun.
this we can agree on.
I've had fun in this game every season i've not been in elite :-D
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equality spoils the fun, everywhere,
girls,cars, wines ...
the posts of most elite managers in her are very smart and for sure right,
but i dont need a textbook,ok maybee i need one but i dont want! it.
change the whole game because of a few people which are unhappy in elite ( unhappy in elite sounds funny to me) they dont need to go there
they could stay in which level they want and have fun or whatever.
whats next???
why are some TD's are so cheap ?
ohhh thats unfair lets equal the impact of every factor in this game
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:16:16 )
equality spoils the fun, everywhere,
girls,cars, wines ...
the posts of most elite managers in her are very smart and for sure right,
but i dont need a textbook,ok maybee i need one but i dont want! it.
change the whole game because of a few people which are unhappy in elite ( unhappy in elite sounds funny to me) they dont need to go there
they could stay in which level they want and have fun or whatever.
whats next???
why are some TD's are so cheap ?
ohhh thats unfair lets equal the impact of every factor in this game
If the game design can be improved (and this would amount to an improvement in game design) without any significant inconvenience to players then it should be done. That should be the guiding principle.
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This problem always happen in open ended games without a finite endgame part. Balance points might also shift over time as the player mass moves for various reasons, like increased knowledge or added features. Be it wow or gpro but people have invested time in their accounts and typically resist change. Still, if the game doesnt change when balance change it will eventually tip over. Seeing very competitive managers fail to establish themselves in Elite even if extremely well prepared will discourage others from even trying.
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 5th 2012,00:23:22 )
If the game design can be improved (and this would amount to an improvement in game design) without any significant inconvenience to players then it should be done. That should be the guiding principle.
the game design of chess could also be improved.
the nonsense request of steady improvent kills fun,kills enviorment,kills humans.
trying to go beyond the narrowmindedness of improve/growth is the key.
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:29:36 )
trying to go beyond the narrowmindedness of improve/growth is the key.
That's an interesting take on it. Normally in this kind of discussion you'd find the participants disputing what amounts to improvements, as opposed to questioning the merits of improvement as a concept.
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Quote ( Sion Francis @ January 5th 2012,00:33:35 )
That's an interesting take on it. Normally in this kind of discussion you'd find the participants disputing what amounts to improvements, as opposed to questioning the merits of improvement as a concept.
maybe thats the reason why still millions of people play chess. they dont want the game to improve,they prefer to improve themself.
sorry for my english, but this content is above my language skills :(
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:40:58 )
maybe thats the reason why still millions of people play chess. they dont want the game to improve,they prefer to improve themself.
if people play gpro after 100 years then maybe they could find almost perfect rules..
now chess is so perfect as a game that almost noone can really improve it
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Quote ( Justinas Smyšliajevas  @ January 4th 2012,23:43:24 ) but actually that 250 vs 450 exp comparison is a bit radical maybe.
Radical? This is the difference from your driver to Jimmy's and other "great" drivers that appeared on last markets. And Its almost impossible for some driver recently promoted from Master arrive with 250 exp.... so Its reality! Interesting is that was you who have asked how to make life of Elite promoters easier!
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I suggest they have to lessen the motivation decrease if hit by a random or puncture..i remember in pro with 150 moti. then had a puncture then my drivers motivation has wiped out.
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Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:29:36 )
the game design of chess could also be improved.
I doubt it. Playing white does give a slight advantage over playing black, but this is negated in tournament play. Chess is as well balanced as a game can be. There is no outside luck factor, there is no "home/away" factor, there is no "weather" factor, etc, I think you chose the wrong game to pick for this purpose.
Besides, Chess as a game has been improved and redesigned to reach its current state over the years. Only these things happened hundreds of years ago.
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Don't e-bash me, I havn't had master or elite experience, HOWEVER in purely and simply replying and adding to this thread, and sorry if someone already said it.
After reading the majority of what people have had to say, I'd would say there is 'demand' for a tier between Master and Elite.
Given Master is 4 groups, and Elite 1, would make sense to have it as 2 groups.
It would fix, transition from master to elite.
Would give you room for another OA cap, without changing the current ones.
Would give access to a 'free' set of sponsors, they could help with the progress.
As well as give both current elites, a slightly better stumbling block, and also masters a little more room for error to be able to successfully get into elite.
HOWEVER, as good as it all sounds to me, I personally couldn't think of a fair promotion and demotion process for both tiers.
I thought maybe same amount down from Elite and perhaps only 2-3 from each of the new tier, but yeah just my 2cents.
Seems to cover the majority of peoples concerns, and once again I have no experience in either just combining all the raised issues into a single solution.
I must also add, I like the retaining in elite is/sounds difficult, it should be, otherwise perfectly good managers would be relegated just because of $1 balance difference or something silly etc. It's what makes getting to and staying in elite such a target for people to aim towards.
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Quote ( Paulo Pinto @ January 4th 2012,23:03:33 )
Two master managers with the same speed at the moment but one have 200exp driver and another one have 300exp driver. With that change, the manager with the 300exp driver will lose a lot o speed, how you solve this problem?
Simple, give them a season to change. The best managers in GPRO are the ones who adapt to game changes better than everyone else.Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 4th 2012,23:50:57 )
it was a decission to made, going for an experienced driver.
You made that choice, you played to the rules. If the rules change then it's your responsibility to change with them. Change is good, and drives us forward.
Quote ( Heite Schaumann @ January 5th 2012,00:04:54 )
i really dont need to get snatched this, because of some "Pro-wanna be elite super smart guys" talking about it(without any experience).
Sometimes a fresh eye looking at a problem offers the best solution. Observe, understand, analyse, solve. An analytical mind can do this regardless of experience. There's a lot of people like this in GPRO.
For the love of whatever deity you believe in, bookmark this thread if you've never been above Pro. The sort of information being dished out here is essential to understanding of how to be successful in GPRO.
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 5th 2012,09:14:29 )
For the love of whatever deity you believe in, bookmark this thread if you've never been above Pro. This!
And fair to all the contributors to the thread. It shows that competition doesnt scare you, and neither does (positive) change.
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Nico Zou
(Groep Elite)
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Berichten: 505 Land:  Gecertificeerd: 
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Quote ( Leandro Sereno @ January 4th 2012,22:31:35 ) For who isnt/wasn't in Elite last seasons, we can compare a driver with 450 exp against one of 250 exp without talk about speed.While the first one has 39% of wear for engine at some track, the second one has 44%. In testings, there also differences in wear. This means in a full season, while lets say the 450 exp guy needs 7 engines, the 250 driver needs 8-9.With same tyres supplier, the ultraexperienced driver also have tyre wear 1-2 laps later, what in Elite means a good advantage on strategies.The 450 exp driver also can use around 10l less in a race compared to the other, this means he is 0.1s faster due to fuel saving.Isnt already too many advantages for experience?But no, at current system every experience point turns the driver faster ad infinitum. One time slower, slower always, even if you train stamina and aggress to a very high level. Is by far the most important driver attribute and why isnt fair? Because you cant train experience. You can ask: talent is not trainable also? Yes, but talent impact is like pound 2 while experience is pound 8.So, creating a limit for experience on driver speed you wont kill importance of +250 exp, but just reducing the gap that is huge with current system.
If you want to compare, compare every points.
-Big exp makes the engine requiring 1100/1200 setup almost every race (that hurts a lot in quals where exp does not compensate).
-Big exp makes the pilot decreasing his agg faster (so, makes the long term training less efficient)
-Big exp makes the motivation impossible to increase significantly if not constantly on top 4/5 (do I need to explain how it hurts?).
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Quote ( Nico Zou @ January 5th 2012,09:38:23 )
If you want to compare, compare every points.
-Big exp makes the engine requiring 1100/1200 setup almost every race (that hurts a lot in quals where exp does not compensate).
-Big exp makes the pilot decreasing his agg faster (so, makes the long term training less efficient)
-Big exp makes the motivation impossible to increase significantly if not constantly on top 4/5 (do I need to explain how it hurts?).
Choose an average experienced driver the next time ;)
Or the three negative points are not such a big loss!
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it has been hard for Master drivers to mantain in Elite even before the bug fix. it has to do mostly with sponsors, there are too few and they are mostly taken by the top 10 managers...
about the experience bug:
I'm sorry if I'm going to be rude, but when the experience bug was fixed, you weren't complaining that much, only Heidi and Jari voiced out loud their opinion and almost left the game...
now that most of the drivers from the top are going to retire you suddenly talk about the experience bug again...
Quote ( Vladimir Alexandrov @ January 4th 2012,16:05:37 )
We have one more solution which we can introduce immediately from next season and combined with the above one season later, it should improve the balance to a satisfactory level.
guess what the intermediate solution will be? RETIRE all drivers with EXP > x?
I do think that the bug should be fixed to balance the game, I'm just surprised it took so many seasons for this subject to be discussed again...
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#299 geplaatst Jan 5 2012, 11:50:43 (laatst aangepast Jan 5 2012, 11:51:34 door Deepak Kar)
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Quote ( Tiago Meireles @ January 5th 2012,11:24:22 )
now that most of the drivers from the top are going to retire you suddenly talk about the experience bug again...
Does this mean that the newcomers now will have a chance to do well because others would lose their "HIGH EXPERIENCED" drivers in a season or two?
If thats the case then "I" think nothing should be changed. :P
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 5th 2012,09:14:29 )
Quote ( Paulo Pinto @ January 4th 2012,23:03:33 )
Two master managers with the same speed at the moment but one have 200exp driver and another one have 300exp driver. With that change, the manager with the 300exp driver will lose a lot o speed, how you solve this problem?
Simple, give them a season to change. The best managers in GPRO are the ones who adapt to game changes better than everyone else.
As I think you know, I am one of the managers that will benefit with any kind of change in exp drivers. Also I am feeling the only one (with a not experienced driver) that is worried with people that will not benefit with such change.
There are some basic principles in strategy games: You can change the rules to improve the game but the change can not benefit just some players. Any change to improve needs to benefit everyone in the same way. Otherwise is "racism" and in this particular case there are "racism" against managers with experienced drivers.
Actually Vlad already spoke about that using other words:
Quote ( Vladimir Alexandrov @ January 4th 2012,16:05:37 )
Quote ( Leandro Sereno @ January 4th 2012,13:19:40 )
Now the solution:
Limit experience impact on pace to 250 pts. Every point above that wont improve driver speed, but just help in other areas that experience also helps (tyre wear, parts wear, fuel consumption).
So far this seems like the best solution. The only drawback is that we can't implement it right away without screwing up some people's plans.
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