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Onderwerp: Russia has attacked Ukraine! |
18311 antwoorden
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Quote ( Andy Pinchera @ March 5th 2022,22:21:18 ) I just have the feeling that Russia is always viewed negatively.
let's decide right away, I do not consider any superstate to be holy and sinless, especially the United States
and even more so I do not consider Russia a superstate.
But if you want an answer to the question why Russia is treated badly, you need to look at the situation after the 80s.
1. Russia is the successor of the USSR, which explains the tension in relations with the United States.
2. Russia - wants the restoration of the USSR - with all the flowing relationships with its neighbors.
3. For many years, Russia has put pressure on Europe with gas capital, fed political elites, trying to influence European domestic politics. And even spineless (in geopolitical terms, Europe understood this). Of course, after such a desire to be friends did not remain.
4. China sees Russia as a raw materials appendage, not as an equal partner. By the way, China now is a separate planet that does not consider anyone on an equal footing, even the United States. But the latter cannot be ignored. From that and abstained in the vote at the UN.
The result - the Russians have no one to be friends with. Precisely because of the failure of foreign policy and stakes on the wrong internal management system.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,22:43:02 ) And if a Russian patriot with a machine gun goes not to your house, but to Zelensky and Poroshenko - will you protect them? Which of them will you and who won't?
This is a pretty stupid question. Sorry, I don't know how to answer more gently.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,22:43:02 ) Но у нас никогда не было ненависти к украинцам.
nevertheless, the Russians have come to my house and the Russians are killing my fellow citizens. The fact is that Russia or Putin and his entourage (as you wish) are trying to convince everyone that the Nazis in Kiev rule the country. That Nazism is supported in our country at the state level and that the current leadership is involved in this. It's not like that. That is why Ukraine and its citizens perceive this attack as a war against the whole of Ukraine, and rightly so.
Have you ever heard similar phrases from persons representing the state? Not from spme peoples on the Maidan, but from officials?
And please tell me how I should treat the words of your president, who today said that our actions (and we are just defending ourselves from attack) endanger our statehood? It goes without saying that every citizen is ready to take a machine gun into his hands after that.
Support for Zelensky before the war was about 25% (at best), now it is 95%. What does this mean? Maybe that no one needs to be saved and you are perceived as invaders? Invaders who claim that the Nazis are controlled by a Jew
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Yes, you're right.
on point 3: the USA is also putting pressure on europe. get involved in politics, etc.
Again, Europe just doesn't have balls to break away from either country. Not even from China, although everything can be produced in Europe.
Europe is weak and so the USA, Russia and China can exert their pressure. Addiction is dangerous.
Russia has no friends from the western world. That's right, but even now 200 million euros are still flowing from Germany to Russia. Just for the gas!
but then accuse switzerland of not doing anything because the swiss didn't immediately freeze putin's accounts.
it is precisely this double standard that prevents a strong, independent europe!
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,22:44:29 ) 2. Russia - wants the restoration of the USSR - with all the flowing relationships with its neighbors.
No.
One of the reasons for the collapse of the USSR was the need to help all republics.
You can say that in the USSR all the republics "fed" Moscow, and then waited for Moscow to lower the money from above. In
Yes, it was the basis of the Soviet economy.
But, in addition to transferring budgets from Moscow, factories, houses, schools were built in the republics - in all republics.
Soviet Ukraine had one of the best industries in the USSR, rebuilt after the war.
During the collapse of the USSR, nuclear weapons were taken from Ukraine, but Russia assumed the external debt of the USSR ($ 96 billion) and fully paid it off only in 2017.
Ukraine became independent in 1991, but even then Russophobia began in it. Why?
About what we want to take back all the republics.
We don't want to.
We would like to take all Russian people to us - yes, but we understand that colonization is not our way and it will only harm us.
Can you find in Putin's words that we have territorial claims?
Over the years of independence, Ukraine has been plundered so much that we will have to spend a lot more to restore it all.
And what territories have we already annexed in Putin's 21 years (except Crimea)?
Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,22:44:29 ) 3. For many years, Russia has put pressure on Europe with gas capital, fed political elites, trying to influence European domestic politics. And even spineless (in geopolitical terms, Europe understood this). Of course, after such a desire to be friends did not remain.
What are you talking about? I pressed so hard that sanctions were constantly being hung on us - the Jackson-Vanik law, then the Magnitsky law. Moreover, the sanctions were almost constant before the Crimea.
And NATO was moving towards our borders - is this also the result of our pressure?
And what did we gain from this pressure?
What did we do so terrible for Europe that they were afraid of us and tried to protect themselves from us?
Have you raised your economy, your armed forces, your industry? But this seems to be normal for any independent country.
Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,22:44:29 ) 4. China sees Russia as a raw materials appendage, not as an equal partner. By the way, China now is a separate planet that does not consider anyone on an equal footing, even the United States. But the latter cannot be ignored. From that and abstained in the vote at the UN.
China is a very difficult country.
Just as Europeans cannot understand Russians, so we cannot understand the Chinese.
China's mentality measures time for decades, if not centuries. China is not friends with many people, but it is not at war. Therefore, time will tell who will be needed for whom.
Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,22:44:29 ) The result - the Russians have no one to be friends with.
Do you think the Russians are afraid of this?
They want to be friends, but there have been so many moments in our history when the whole world was against us that it doesn't even surprise us.
we will be more afraid if America and England suddenly love us (as it was under Gorbachev and Yeltsin). It means that they want to rob us of something. :)
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Quote ( Andy Pinchera @ March 5th 2022,23:10:52 ) but then accuse switzerland of not doing anything because the swiss didn't immediately freeze putin's accounts.
I won’t say that Ukraine was happy about this, but still. Nobody blames Switzerland. I think even if it had remained neutral, it had at least been consistent.
But even if your country is not left out, it means something.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,22:59:21 )
nevertheless, the Russians have come to my house and the Russians
I am writing to you that hatred of Russians has always been kindled in Ukraine, but never in Russia. And you're writing to me about now.
Was Yushchenko not a Russophobe? Did you jump from "moskalyaka to gilyaku" on Maidan 2013? But there wasn't even Crimea yet. in
Have you never seen Russophobia in Ukraine? In independent Ukraine. When they were part of the USSR, of course, they wanted independence and freedom. And then why?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,21:49:25 ) Quote ( Alexei Malkin @ March 5th 2022,21:28:25 )
If you look at this forum, you can assume that 80% of the world's population is against Putin's actions. q
But I haven't heard opinions from China, India, Africa, the Middle East and many other countries here.
Please take our word that it's closer to 99% of the world that does not support what Putin is doing.
Only he, a few thousand ( alleged ) persecuted Russians that ( for some reason ) continued to live in the the Ukraine, and Putin disciples inside Russia back this 'intervention'.
China ( Xi ) will not side with the West as he wishes do to exactly what Putin is doing to Taiwan
India will not side with the West yet, because it has massive military contracts with Russia.( It will in time however )
The Middle East and Africa ( or South America etc ) will not side with the West yet because they have no military to concern anyone. Therefore they will watch in disbelief and see what happens next.
The 99% is because Putin has threatened a nuclear escalation if anyone tries to stop him. This is planet problem therefore. The planet does not want what Putin has the power over.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:14:08 ) No.
after Putin's articles, his speeches recently - it is simply naive to deny it. everyone understands what he wants, it is not clear why Ukraine needs it.
Regarding the industrialization of Ukraine - this is also a very naive view. Industry was here, as the economy of the USSR was regionalized, mainly by the location of resources and geographical logistics.
And the goods of the USSR were so classy that they could not compete with their Western counterparts and the factories closed one by one almost immediately. Etc...
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Well there are some Russian GPROers I will listen to by reading what they have to say with interest and some that are just blatant liars and bull shitters.
I think the liars unfortunately have taken over the GPRO discussion.
I will not be reading them anymore.
Maybe western propaganda has screwed my mind but I don’t care anymore the Nazis are now the Russian dictatorship and army no matter what is said anymore, no matter the made up provocation or excuse.
I will follow the discussion ongoing but without naming names I will not read any of the comments from the guys whose first name is Dmitry anymore!
I know it won’t bother them one bit, they have a job to do, they are the mouthpiece of the Russian Adolf. I was interested in what they had to say at one time but it’s just verbal diarrhoea now That they spout. Just my opinion of course.
What are these people called in modern society ? Trolls isn’t it ?
I think we should take a leaf out of the normal nations in this conflict and send them to coventry, ignore them and isolate them. If we could put sanctions on them then I would do but GPRO rightly gives them the right of free speech, something their own country deprives them of.
Its the one right in their lives at the moment and they are going to take full advantage of it. But it doesn’t mean anybody has to read it !
Zelensky was a national hero, now he is an international one! Keep fighting Ukraine, if it’s the end for you, it’s the end for all of us.
There will be a time when Russia under Putin will push his power too far and do something he thinks he can get away with. He blames NATO, USA, NAZIS for coming too close to his border so instead he invaded Ukraine to close the gap to NATO! Great plan Pootin.
At some point it is curtains for all of us. Just put him back in his box. We have bowed down to his threats too long now. His military exercise and denial of an invasion even happening was found out and predicted but we did nothing.
We should stand up to the dictator now, call his bluff and not play the Neville Chaimberlain of the modern world by declaring “Peace in our time” If he threatens us with pushing the button every time somebody steps in his way eventually his bluff will be called too. I hope it doesn’t happen, I hope the Russian generals are planning a coup but unfortunately that is wishful thinking and a world war is on its way.
NATO Should call his bluff and enforce a no fly zone over Ukraine. If he uses nukes, well he was going to do that anyway and he just had a better hand at the card table….. but there won’t be a world left to worry about for anybody should that happen!
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Quote ( Tim Villars @ March 5th 2022,23:23:28 ) Please take our word that it's closer to 99% of the world that does not support what Putin is doing
Yes, not so many supported it (5 countries).
Let's count how many of the country's population does not condemn Putin's actions?
try to calculate (approximately) the number of the population of countries that have not imposed sanctions on Russia for Putin's actions?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:20:22 ) Was Yushchenko not a Russophobe? Did you jump from "moskalyaka to gilyaku" on Maidan 2013?
no, didn't. if he allowed himself to wear national clothes and speak with Russians in his native language, in ukrainian, this does not make him a russophobe
about the dislike for Russians. Once again I ask, except for individual private manifestations - did it manifest itself in this way at the state level? And don't forget, those who shouted "москаляку на гіляку" most likely remember not only about the fraternal peoples, but also about the Gulag, the Holodomor and much more. Let me remind you that Stalin is still honored in Russia today
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,23:26:20 ) after Putin's articles, his speeches recently
Can I be more specific? After all, Putin's "aggressiveness" and his desire to "seize neighbors" is so obvious that the Ukrainian press should be all over the quotes of his speeches. And not just "but it's clear to everyone what Putin wants."
And you didn't answer - why was Russophobia growing all the time in independent Ukraine?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:31:12 ) Quote ( Tim Villars @ March 5th 2022,23:23:28 )
Please take our word that it's closer to 99% of the world that does not support what Putin is doing
Yes, not so many supported it (5 countries).
Let's count how many of the country's population does not condemn Putin's actions?
try to calculate (approximately) the number of the population of countries that have not imposed sanctions on Russia for Putin's actions?
Because it will damage their already fragile economies.
Only the rich can afford to be pious
Comrade the West is very rich, both in cash and more importantly in how we judge each other.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:14:08 ) Do you think the Russians are afraid of this?
oh, I'm sure that the Russians will tolerate and not such things from their leadership. But for now, your total isolation is all the Ukrainian people want.
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This is a good translator for anyone who needs it to better follow the course of this topic as the languages shift back and forth...
[url]https://www.deepl.com/translator[/url]
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 5th 2022,23:34:07 ) no, didn't. if he allowed himself to wear national clothes and speak with Russians in his native language, in ukrainian, this does not make him a russophobe
about the dislike for Russians. Once again I ask, except for individual private manifestations - did it manifest itself in this way at the state level? And don't forget, those who shouted "москаляку на гіляку" most likely remember not only about the fraternal peoples, but also about the Gulag, the Holodomor and much more. Let me remind you that Stalin is still honored in Russia today
I understand you correctly that you do not see any Russophobic sentiments in independent Ukraine, including in the country's leadership.
Okay, I'll try to pick up the documents for you.
And those young guys who jumped from "moskalyak to gilyaku" on the Maidan in 2013 wanted to take revenge on the current Russians for the Holodomor of 1932 and the GULAG of 1937, about which they were told?
So you don't think it's Russophobia that young Ukrainian guys are told that the Russian Stalin is to blame for the Holodomor and the Gulag, and therefore it's necessary now to "Muscovite on gilyaku"? What is it that the current Russians have to answer for what we had in the past?
That the Holodomor and the Gulag were made only for the genocide of the Ukrainian people? Is that how they teach it in your textbooks?
And you don't call it Russophobia?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:36:25 ) Can I be more specific? After all, Putin's "aggressiveness" and his desire to "seize neighbors" is so obvious that the Ukrainian press should be all over the quotes of his speeches. And not just "but it's clear to everyone what Putin wants."
why our press? I personally listened attentively to your president's speech, his threats against my country. The way he clearly said that Ukraine is artificial and that he will teach us decommunization.
let's decide what you call Russophobia? If there is a cool attitude towards the representatives of your country, I am ready to continue to discuss this, because this is so. If something as hatred for everything Russian, we will end here, because this is complete nonsense.
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Quote ( Tim Villars @ March 5th 2022,23:36:59 ) try to calculate (approximately) the number of the population of countries that have not imposed sanctions on Russia for Putin's actions?
Because it will damage their already fragile economies.
That is, we will not count, just say that 99% of the world is against Putin.
The main thing is for you to believe in it yourself. :)
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,21:49:25 ) Quote ( Alexei Malkin @ March 5th 2022,21:28:25 )
If you look at this forum, you can assume that 80% of the world's population is against Putin's actions.
You gave a number, I corrected it for you.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:47:20 ) I understand you correctly that you do not see any Russophobic sentiments in independent Ukraine, including in the country's leadership.
Okay, I'll try to pick up the documents for you.
oh no doubt. You will find something, just like me, if you wish, but I will repeat once again - this is not the position of the Ukrainian state. State - where half are Russian-speaking, and some piece generally have a Russian passport.
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:47:20 ) And those young guys who jumped from "moskalyak to gilyaku" on the Maidan in 2013 wanted to take revenge on the current Russians for the Holodomor of 1932 and the GULAG of 1937, about which they were told?
So you don't think it's Russophobia that young Ukrainian guys are told that the Russian Stalin is to blame for the Holodomor and the Gulag, and therefore it's necessary now to "Muscovite on gilyaku"? What is it that the current Russians have to answer for what we had in the past?
I do not know the motives of these people, perhaps you need to communicate with them personally
Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,23:47:20 ) That the Holodomor and the Gulag were made only for the genocide of the Ukrainian people?
what is meant by the Holodomor - yes - is the genocide of the Ukrainian people and many countries agree with this. Russia refused to recognize it as genocide.
As for the Gulag, no, the system of camps devoured everyone, indiscriminately. But the fact that there was a huge number of political prisoners speaks for itself.
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Dmitry, answer me one question, why is there no one Ukrainian school in Russia? In Ukraine there were about 200 by 2020
if I accuse your country of Ukrainophobia, will that be fair?
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,20:14:05 ) @Pavel Král (A45) Did you say that the Western press promised martial law on Friday?
Did you lie to us?
or have you got Fridays mixed up and that Friday hasn't come yet?
According to one of press announcement IT was heavily considered. I just red it. Obviously the information was false or the Martial law Will come later than the article Saíd.
Im not lying, be aware of what you say And what I wrote.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ March 6th 2022,00:05:36 ) Dmitry, answer me one question, why is there no one Ukrainian school in Russia? In Ukraine there were about 200 by 2020
if I accuse your country of Ukrainophobia, will that be fair?
At what time any part of Russia had more than 50% native Ukrainian living in it? Or any part of Russia belonged to Ukraine?
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Quote ( Martti Kaasik @ March 6th 2022,00:41:07 ) At what time any part of Russia had more than 50% native Ukrainian living in it? Or any part of Russia belonged to Ukraine?
two questions:
1. What is the significance of 50% for the region? In Ukraine, as far as I know, not a single region also has 50% Russians on its territory. But, necessarily, Russian schools were in every region of the country
2. What kind of nonsense with the belonging of parts of Russia? What does it matter? Ukraine does not intend to revise the borders of countries based on the results of the Second World War and the Helsinki agreements (I think that's what they are called). Unlike Russia, which did this in Crimea and Donbass
And if it comes to that, Russia, which was the first to leave the USSR and appeared in 1991, did not belong no one piece of Ukrainian territory.
so I repeat my question, why in a country where officially 2 million Ukrainians live, and unofficially up to 5 million there is not a single Ukrainian school?
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@Dmitry Knyazev (M3) You seem to know almost everything So Im going to ask you:
Which country Will Russia invade next? Putin said he wants to build new world arrangement but even if he'd defeated UA in won't be over. Who's next? And another?
I told you Once that Putin Is killing you. I meant he's killing Russia - Its soldiers, Its economy, its moral credit, Its Future And even Its people's brains. How could you Stand it?
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For those who claim that Russia has to go protect the linguistic rights of Russians in Ukraine, I hope that you are equally advocating the right of majorities in regions like Chechnya and Dagestan to have education in their native language. Because guess what, Putin has imposed Russian as primary language in education in all schools in all regions of the Russian Federation.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/pressure-on-regional-la...
I'm not saying this is right, and I'm not saying it would be right in Ukraine either. But from what I read, at least in Ukraine it's still allowed for private schools to decide their primary language. Which means that the Russian minority in Ukraine is still better off than the Chechen majority in Chechnya...
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Can't everyone just live together peacefully? Until a few months ago, I did not feel threatened by Russia in any way. now I am afraid of a nuclear war. It doesn't matter where the national borders are. Russia is so big, why do you need to expand it? I did not understand the argument with the Nazis. Even in Germany there is certainly more than in Ukraine. I have the feeling that Putin wants to destroy the whole world.
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Quote ( Dmitry Knyazev @ March 5th 2022,21:49:25 ) I know how sociologists work. To lie to them is about the same as to mirror makers to produce mirrors in which people look younger, and to manufacturers of scales such in which people weigh less.
They won't do it. VTsIOM and FOM can be trusted. in
About the observations around you. It's very dangerous.
If you look at this forum, you can assume that 80% of the world's population is against Putin's actions. q
But I haven't heard opinions from China, India, Africa, the Middle East and many other countries here.
We will not consider them as people whose opinions should be listened to, just because they have not spoken here or because they are uneducated, do not have the Internet and do not play GPRO?
Yes, for example, a lot of people voted against it at the UN. But we must understand that the UN resolution is just a piece of paper and everyone knows it. At one time, the whole world condemned Israel's actions and nothing, they survived and continue their actions.
It is better to look at practical actions - a map of countries that have announced sanctions. According to this map, the world is rather waiting for the results of the military operation in Ukraine. in
And thank you separately for your opinion. I don't always share it, but it's honest.
Quote ( Alexei Malkin @ March 5th 2022,21:28:25 ) I know that a lot of people supported the war. When I talked to a lot of my friends, do you know how much supported it? Exactly zero.
We have a Russian-speaking chat about gpro in Russian language. There are 19 people, including one Ukrainian. Do you know how much people supported the war there? Zero.
As I said, there is one Ukrainian manager in this group, all gpro community knows him. In first two days of the war 10 people wrote to him words of support (not everyone is active here, probably 10 people are all who are active). He pleased us. He said that he know how everything works and he has no problem with us.
Just for information.
Of course, it can't tell that the average statistics is the same. I usually speak with people of my ages and with similar interests, interesting for me people as individuals.
For example, my mother is also believed that Ukraine was a real danger for us and the war is the only way to stop them. She always trust TV. Even when I was studying in school, I always told my mom to not trust to TV. Her answer:
- I know, there is a lie everywhere, of course I understand it. By the way, do you know what happens? Putin just said that...
...and all that shit.
Sadly, but I see the same about few peoples here in this thread, but I can't affect on it. And it's not my business honestly, I did my best to explain.
Of course, everything has something to do with education, but in the end it's about the way you want to live. In freedom or just believing that it is a free life.
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The total combat losses of the enemy from 24.02 to 06.03 approximately amounted to:
▪️personnel - more than 11 thousand people,
▪️tanks ‒ 285 units,
▪️ BBM ‒ 985 units,
▪️ artillery systems -109 units,
▪️ MLRS -50 units,
▪️ air defense systems - 21 units,
▪️ aircraft - 44 units,
▪️ helicopters - 48 units,
▪️ automotive equipment - 447 units,
▪️ light speedboats - 2 units,
▪️ tanks with PPM - 60,
▪️ UAV operational-tactical level - 4.
The data is being specified. Counting is complicated by the high intensity of hostilities.
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