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Enquete de tópico do fórum
What should happen to Sebastian Vettel after he ignored team orders?
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Tópico: Vettel's team orders misdemeanor |
248 respostas
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The most distasteful bit of the whole thing for me was Vettels 'fake' regret.
He could easily have put the issue right during the race as he had 13 laps to do it, but chose not to. Vettel acted like a little school boy who was caught throwing stones at girls rather than an adult earning big bucks for driving a car in 'circles'.
Is he a cheat? No.
Does he have integrity? No.
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The reason for such strong team orders is clear:
The Pirellis this year wear out very easily, a few exchanging of positions would mean a lot of rubber being used. This results in both RBRs losing out. That's the main reason why RBR was against Vettel to pass his teammate. Which makes perfect sense since RBR runs as a team.
Sebastian Vettel has lost a few fans there for sure, whilst he should not be banned for a race or two, perhaps a good talk and a slight pay cut would do? This young bloke has a lot to learn.
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I like the fact that Vettel ignored the team orders, as this early on in the season it doesn't matter. What I don't like is that he says it was "an accident" and he's trying to make it seem like he didn't mean to pass him. If he said that yes he meant to pass him on purpose and he doesn't like team orders then that would be much better
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#185 Postado 26 Mar 2013, 15:23:32 (editado pela última vêz 26 Mar 2013, 15:24:25 por Manuel Darin)
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Quote ( Dave Morris @ March 26th 2013,14:06:35 ) Whether we agree with the use of Team orders or not is a mute point, they exist and are allowed (I for one like to see racing and team orders distract and manipulate that).
Which is more important, The Driver's Title, or the Constructors Title? From the public's point of view it is the Driver's Title, we remember the Driver and the team he was racing for, but that team is not necessarily the team that won the championship.
Times have changed, the sport has become cost prohibitive. Gone are the days of 1200 hp qualifying engines, complete component replacement between qualifying and the race and in season testing. The sport now is about managing resources; 8 engines in a season; 1 gearbox every 5 races; no spare cars; limited testing sessions; and pay drivers.
Ah yes, pay drivers, bringing sponsorship money to the team. It is not about the best drivers in the sport, but about the money that can be brought to develop the teams race package.
With all the restrictions in place, team orders become part of the racing package and cannot be ignored, whether you like it or not. It is no longer about the individual race, but about the entire season, and how to maximize points over the duration.
I do not like the present system because, a driver is not racing if he has to manage his resources , because he has to make them last a few more races.
Vettel was not the first to ignore team orders, many have done it, Nelson Piquet, often unplugged his radio, however in an age where long term resource management, is more important than short term race gains, he was wrong and should be punished.
Great analysis Dave.
I don't think F1 is about racing anymore. Anything in that circle is far from the real world (do you remember the gem-set helmet). I don't know if Vettel will be punished, but it's sure this feud will remain behind the scenes since there is too much money in play. And it's a pity since feuds are between the most exciting aspects of racing.
Really if I want to see real racing I'm going to watch stockcars (both European and NASCAR).
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Quote ( Dave Morris @ March 26th 2013,14:06:35 ) however in an age where long term resource management, is more important than short term race gains, he was wrong and should be punished.
And yet, it may well be that the championship may be decided by the extra points he gained that race. I wouldn't say that is a short term issue at all.
It seems to me people just want to compromise the ideal of what a sport should be about and just accept the messed up reality of selfish teams that only care about money(because of necessity or just greed).
Surprisingly enough, we see this every day, people just accept the messed up politics and economy, always trying to compromise instead of going for a true change to fix the problem.
If F1 is under a broken economic model in which teams can barely survive, then you should tackle that issue, instead of trying to accommodate it and compromise and say drivers should only race to give the teams the best result possible, because they can't survive otherwise.
Such a bad argument...
If teams need money, go complain to Bernie and ask why is it that the FOM gets so much more money then the teams...
Very easy to just buckle down and think about small issues instead of the very large picture.
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For those that do not understand what is behind the TV screens and fan talks of F1, and following from what I was saying yesterday:
This about Vettel being the boss in Red Bull (above Horner and co.):
Asked if he now expected Webber or Vettel to leave Red Bull after 2013, Briatore replied: "That's for sure. Last year, already, there were problems.
"Their car is very competitive so drivers want to stay there, but [Sepang] was proof that no one is in charge at Red Bull.
"Vettel is the boss there. You can't have a team manager also doing the driving."
Briatore accused Red Bull team boss Christian Horner of weakness, alleging that the power balance between Horner, technical director Adrian Newey, Red Bull advisor Helmut Marko and company chief Dietrich Mateschitz is flawed.
"If there was a manager with balls, he would have had them switch positions again," said Briatore.
"The problem is that there are two people with different ideas on the pit wall, with Helmut behind them doing the talking with Mateschitz, so you understand they are all scared."
He also criticised the fact that Newey was on the podium rather than Horner.
"Normally the team principal goes on the podium at the first race win of the season," said Briatore.
"Christian didn't even have the strength to get on the podium - because they're terrified with a driver in charge instead of the team manager. You'd first go yourself if you win the championship or the first race, and after that you'd send race engineers or your technical director.
"The fact that Christian didn't go on the podium after scoring a one-two says a lot about his weakness compared to the others."
Source: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/formula-1-webber-vettel-m...
I understand that for fans and the like it's difficult to understand how the system Works. And I understand that sometimes I'm not too clear in my explanations, because I'm part of the system and I know all about it, so sometimes I'm writing as if the people I'm talking to are also aware of the details, etc. But I hope that you can understand what this means.
Now... if you don't know the relationship between Vettel and Marko and Mateschitz from 1998 onwards, then you're so off the subject that you won't know how to judge what happened and what will come next... so if you are not aware of this business, you better study it to know how things work and what will follow...
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Quote ( Dave Morris @ March 26th 2013,14:06:35 ) Which is more important, The Driver's Title, or the Constructors Title? From the public's point of view it is the Driver's Title
Agree with much of what you say. Maybe I'm in the minority but for me it's the constructors title that's more important. F1's a team game.. infact not even really a team game, it's a sort of business game but with real-life financial consequences. Companies battling it out for competition's own sake in an exciting high-tech, high-finance arena, with all facets of organisation and management and so on mattering hugely. It isn't a sport in the normal sense, people looking for pure 'racing' should definitely go elsewhere
The drivers are only one cog in the machine. One of the more important ones sure, but a lot of their importance comes from being a point of critical failure in any single race weekend. If they need to be replaced, even at short notice, for a top team it's arguably less painful than changing technical director or chief designer. And as we know for the backrunning teams the driver's sponsor package is often more important than their talent
The problem is the drivers come from feeder formulas where they are proper 'sportsmen' chasing nothing more than their own success, and in F1 they're required to continue acting like sporting celebrities for PR purposes, so it's no surprise they all have egos that put their own achievements ahead of the team. Mark is as guilty of that as Seb everytime he bitches about the way he's treated. In almost any other business you get paid money to compensate the fact that your employer is deciding what you do. Of course you can agree conditions when you first negotiate the job, but once you're 'clocked on' you should be following that agreement and working for your company not yourself
In the end all the teams can do is try to manage those egos as best they can. It's not really productive for RB to suspend Vettel or anything like that. The dressing-down he got on the radio during his victory lap along with media scrutiny afterwards was probably more painful. Be more interesting to see what Mark does
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Red bull shouldn't do anything but Mark Webber shouldn't obey any team orders from now on........;)
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Quote ( Fernando Rees @ March 26th 2013,16:45:12 )
"If there was a manager with balls, he would have had them switch positions again," said Briatore.
Is a very good point. What struck me is the huge difference in the way RB and Mercedes sent orders to their drivers, at least from what we heard on the radio feed. Christian Horner is always proud of saying stuff like "we let our drivers race, even if it sometimes ends badly like in Turkey yada yada", and it seemed here like they were almost trying to disguise the fact Seb was being ordered not to pass Mark with the same kind of "Go easy Seb" "Come on Seb this silly" messages that he always gets, even in the lead. Not to mention the 'multi-21' gobbledygook
The message to Nico was so much clearer, it came from Ross Brawn only and it came with a proper explanation. If Seb had gotten that he couldn't have plausibly pretended after the race he didn't fully realise what he'd done
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I rather see it as "Vettel did the right thing" cause It favours the sport.
:)
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Quote ( Abhishek Kankonkar @ March 26th 2013,16:49:10 ) Red bull shouldn't do anything but Mark Webber shouldn't obey any team orders from now on........;)
It's better put like "Webber shouldn't agree with any team orders beforehand.
And as for team orders during the race : Radio Silence! ;)
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Quote ( Thomas Wesker @ March 26th 2013,17:08:34 ) as for team orders during the race : Radio Silence! ;)
HELL YEAH!
no more "Fernando is faster than you" lol
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I personally, feel as if Vettel should be suspended for a race.
But, its unlikely to happen.
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Well i just cant see the point, i mean Vettel and Rosberg were faster than their teammates but difference was Vettel had the guts (and ofcse the reputation) to overtake Mark unlike Rosberg who was sitting there complaining to Brawn and didnt do anything about it as Hamilton was the team's first choice. Seriously if anything is wrong its the Team orders, drivers need freedom in the race and for that both teams should be fined for giving such orders
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Quote ( Athul Rex @ March 26th 2013,17:12:45 ) Seriously if anything is wrong its the Team orders, drivers need freedom in the race and for that both teams should be fined for giving such orders
and ruining the sport.. where a race driver has to go slow.. because the team says so.. In what planet makes sense to slow down in a race?
:P
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Saying Vettel had "courage" to ignore team orders is like when that judge said burglars have "courage" to break into peoples houses. It is NOT couragous - it is two faced and wrong
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Quote ( Fernando Rees @ March 26th 2013,16:45:12 ) Now... if you don't know the relationship between Vettel and Marko and Mateschitz from 1998 onwards, then you're so off the subject that you won't know how to judge what happened and what will come next...
so you essentially say that the 'team' part of RB (Horner) thinks/thought Vettel shouldn't have overtaken, but can't/couldn't actually do anything about it because of Vettel/Marko/Mateschitz connection overruling his power (the 'protection' Mark hinted of), am i right?
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Quote ( Leonardo Bittencourt @ March 26th 2013,15:28:08 ) It seems to me people just want to compromise the ideal of what a sport should be about and just accept the messed up reality of selfish teams that only care about money(because of necessity or just greed).
And what Vettel did was messing another ideal ...
It's called 'teamwork'.
Without that, there's no team. It's just a bunch of people doing whatever they want. Pretty sure that's not what an F1 team should look like ... economical model or not.
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that was very silly move i think
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Here's what Mark Webber's dad, Alan, had to say on the matter...
"Up and down the pit lane Mark has not lost any credibility at all," said Alan Webber. "It's probably Sebastian who has lost an awful lot."
"I think it will take a while to earn the respect and trust again."
The driver's father, speaking to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, added: "Sebastian disobeyed team orders and most, if not all the team, are disappointed with him."
Webber Sr also dismissed the suggestion that his son, 36, would turn his back on the sport before the Chinese Grand Prix on 14 April.
And BERNIE SAID THIS:
Formula 1's president and CEO Bernie Ecclestone has also expressed his disappointment at the situation.
The 82-year-old said there was not enough at stake after two races to justify team orders: "If there is only one guy who could get enough points to win the title, then the other guy should be helping him, for sure."
Ecclestone also criticised Mercedes for ordering Nico Rosberg to remain behind team-mate Lewis Hamilton, despite being much faster than the Brit in the closing stages.
"I thought that was a stupid decision. I think Rosberg could have chased the two Red Bulls down a little more. That decision wasn't sensible," added the F1 chief.
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For such a smart guy Bernie says some apparently very stupid things sometimes (of course in reality he knows the teams will do these things, but he's happy to say otherwise)
"there was not enough at stake"
It's F1 Bernie
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F1 is just not a team sport for drivers.
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Not right that team orders are given so soon in a season, but the points gained could make all the difference come the end.
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Quote ( Dougie Marshall @ March 26th 2013,21:22:28 ) SHOOT HIS DOG!
It's not his dog's fault that Vettel is a little whining b!tch...
I've lost the last ounce of respect I had for him after the race on sunday... HAve a look over the past two seasons... when ever Vettel didn't have it HIS way, he was constantly moaning and whining about it...
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F1 is a team sport and Vettel should have done his job and hung back.
Personally I feel Webber has been treated quite badly by the management in general at Red Bull during his time there (eg the "stolen front wing" incident a few seasons back when team orders were NOT permitted). If I were him I would walk out right now, scuppering their chances of the WCC and taking away a good support driver for Vettel if he should need one later on in the season.
Mark will then find a good drive at the end of the season,whether in F1 or not, him being the consummate professional he his. Big respect for him for the mature way in which he handled himself after the race.
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Quote ( Ashley Harper @ March 26th 2013,22:38:46 ) If I were him I would walk out right now Quote ( Ashley Harper @ March 26th 2013,22:38:46 ) him being the consummate professional he his
No matter what your feelings or opinions on the situation, I can't see how these two things can go together. If he is the "consummate professional" you say then he isn't going to walk away, and if he did, he should be classed as a "consummate professional."
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Red bull told both drivers to turn their engines down to save their engines, they only have 8 engines a season or they are penalised. But Vettell disobeyed that turned up his engine and over took webber. Webber was on softer tires and easily could of won if there was no team orders. Seb is a spoilt little brat and should be shot.
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Quote ( Lincoln Litchfield @ March 26th 2013,23:59:37 ) Seb is a spoilt little brat
Totally agree with this, is the second time he does it to a gentlemen like Mr. Webber.
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