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Enquete de tópico do fórum
Should tyre punctures be race ending?
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Tópico: Should tyre punctures be race ending? |
126 respostas
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Quote ( Ahmet Ozturk @ December 29th 2022,23:30:18 ) It's quite rare and could happen to anyone. The game is good because of this kind of variables, removing these will make it dull.
So if a race you are watching doesn't have anyone suffer a random, you would consider it dull?
In fact, using Jasper's post as an example, there are plenty of variables in place that don't put you into the tyre wall. Surely they provide enough variation? Not to mention the range of tyre suppliers and peak temperatures etc. Sorry I really don't buy this argument.
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ December 29th 2022,23:34:50 ) So if a race you are watching doesn't have anyone suffer a random, you would consider it dull?
Not knowing if it will happen or not is what makes it not dull. You can never know what will happen, even the most guaranteed win can be undone by a random.
Personally, I'm fine with having randoms. I can't really put it into words, but (and people will hate me for this and / or tell me I'm saying this because I never got a random when pushing for an Elite title) I like the chaos randoms cause. Guess I'm a masochist :P
I've earned almost $1M from others having randoms this season and we had only 2 races! :P
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Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ December 29th 2022,23:43:53 ) Not knowing if it will happen or not is what makes it not dull. You can never know what will happen, even the most guaranteed win can be undone by a random.
But why is this a good thing? Any person with a decent sense of morality would not be sitting in second place hoping that the leader gets a random. Neither would I be sitting in the lead of a race and think, well this is boring now I'm guaranteed a win...this game sucks...yawn.
Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ December 29th 2022,23:43:53 ) I've earned almost $1M from others having randoms this season and we had only 2 races! :P
So you've gained 5 places over the course of 2 races? That's an average of 2.5 randoms per race per group then, which proves the point that they are excessive.
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“[The] front left [was affected] because it is the most stressed tyre but I don’t want to say that this was caused by excessive energy or something like that,” Isola told Sky Sports F1. “First elements that I can share with you is, all the tyres were quite worn, close to 100%. We have cuts on the tyres that we have to understand if they were caused before the loss of pressure or after the loss of pressure.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.pirelli-boss-isol...
So in reality (F1) the puncture is not exactly a random...but a random on 100% worn tyre..
Therefore I fully agree the puncture should disapear from the game
or it CAN eventually occur very rarely (using current probability percentage) ONLY when tyres are worn in the means that they start wobbling.
But again I repeat, puncture should come in such case in current ratio...in any means no more often than now
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ December 29th 2022,23:21:24 ) In terms of the weather as you mentioned, it genuinely is the same for everyone.
The weather is the same for everyone, the impact isn't. If the rain only lasts 2 laps it will benefit those who started on slicks over those who started on rain tyres. If the season is colder and wetter than average, it will benefit those on Badyears over those on Conties.
As for qualifying, one race shows the impact of randomness perfectly: last season, R15, Branislav was faster than me in practice (dry track) and at least as fast as me during the race (wet track). But due to qualifying randomness I started a few places in front of him, he got stuck in traffic, and with the rain (driver mistakes) and it being Very Hard overtaking, it was impossible for him to get a good result from there. Impact: I stayed in Elite, he relegated. Not because I was better but because I was luckier.
People who say that in a management game there shouldn't be any elements that are not within your control should be consistent. But above all, they need to be careful what they wish for.
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Sorry... feeling a little sick in the helmet.
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Quote ( Jay De Snoo @ December 30th 2022,00:20:47 )
Sorry... feeling a little sick in the helmet.
The only rider who i know that would have helmet issues is the late Marco Simoncelli and your hair looks nothing like his Jay.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 30th 2022,00:08:27 ) The weather is the same for everyone, the impact isn't. If the rain only lasts 2 laps it will benefit those who started on slicks over those who started on rain tyres. If the season is colder and wetter than average, it will benefit those on Badyears over those on Conties.
Aren't those manager decisions? What tyre brand they pick? What start strategies they do? Where's the manager decision in a pure random?
I agree it's something that's management related in recovering from that random.
R1 this season my group had 2 (TWO, not a typo) race ending tyre punctures. R1!
/gb/RaceSummary.asp?Group=Master+-+2&sort=&order=&am...
That does seem a bit excessive to me...
On the other hand my personal experience is that while I was always planning with a race on last position, I had so many randoms that I started to have 2 races in the planning like that... [Edit: and I was rejoicing when I didn't have a random... like... yeah, that's sad]
And my wallet then decided to do a pure random on gpro and stopped me from being supporter anymore. I do not enjoy races with randoms, be it me or someone else. Until they are fixed (or the pitstop bug) I will not be supporter.
I voted in this poll, but my wallet's vote is more important I guess.
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#39 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 00:34:26 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 00:38:13 por Sam Tipple)
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 30th 2022,00:08:27 ) The weather is the same for everyone, the impact isn't. If the rain only lasts 2 laps it will benefit those who started on slicks over those who started on rain tyres. If the season is colder and wetter than average, it will benefit those on Badyears over those on Conties.
Choosing slicks, that is an impact that comes from a choice the manager has made.
Choosing Contis over Badyears, then you are taking the risk on an OBP tyre that will come good in certain weather conditions. Again, this is a choice made by the manager.
A random such as sick in the helmet, that is not a choice made by the manager.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 30th 2022,00:08:27 ) As for qualifying, one race shows the impact of randomness perfectly: last season, R15, Branislav was faster than me in practice (dry track) and at least as fast as me during the race (wet track). But due to qualifying randomness I started a few places in front of him, he got stuck in traffic, and with the rain (driver mistakes) and it being Very Hard overtaking, it was impossible for him to get a good result from there. Impact: I stayed in Elite, he relegated. Not because I was better but because I was luckier.
I mean no disrespect to Branislav here, but what were qualifying risks used here? Driver stats, race risks in terms of the driver mistakes etc. All of the example you are referring to are influenced by stats or choices put in place by each manager. The pure randoms that I am referring to are not influenced by such things. There is quite the difference.
I anticipate your response may be that a big part of the qualifying time may contribute to a random factor, which I accept. But your example is extreme. What about the other 16 races? What about the races where overtaking isn't hard? I do not accept that places lost due to not being able to overtake, have the same repercussions as a pure random where you may be losing millions of income. The impact is not the same. I'm sorry but if you are talking about one race being the difference between retention and relegation, then you cannot complain.
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#40 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 00:56:18 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 00:57:27 por Tomas Dederle)
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 30th 2022,00:08:27 ) If the rain only lasts 2 laps it will benefit those who started on slicks over those who started on rain tyres. If the season is colder and wetter than average, it will benefit those on Badyears over those on Conties.
Jasper, if you REALLY put this on equal with puncture, I have to wonder you are with your logic still in Elite...
Those decisions...what tyres to buy or which tyres to start with - are possibly to manage - make decision - based on odds...like in poker. Safer or riskier decision
But puncture is from other space.
That is why I suggest it comes as rarely as it is now, but is related only to wobbling ( very high tyre wear). Because wobbling is for majority players also a result of their decision
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#41 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 00:59:07 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 00:59:18 por Bruno Caseiro)
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Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ December 30th 2022,00:34:03 ) Aren't those manager decisions? What tyre brand they pick? What start strategies they do? Where's the manager decision in a pure random?
There is an option in race & strategy which is "If a problem occurs, should the driver pit if the problem can be solved? Yes/No". Trust me, this is a manager decision.
Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 29th 2022,22:34:34 ) Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ December 29th 2022,19:54:02 )
I like fair battles on track, whether it's by pace or strategy.
No u don´t. U lost against someone who won 9/17 races and you still believe you lost because of a random. Still disappointed the way u gave up, because you would lose the champ with more than 10 points and u could no longer use that excuse.
ps: Btw, still disappointed how u don´t mention the luck u had to make that initial gap in the championship. No mention about my 3 Q1 dms in a row, no mention about winning against a FAST manager than you in R2 and no mention about blocking the fastest guy in the track when ur driver was completely dead. But, but the "random"...
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#42 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 01:03:13 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 01:03:34 por Tomas Dederle)
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Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 ) Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ December 30th 2022,00:34:03 )
"If a problem occurs, should the driver pit if the problem can be solved? Yes/No". Trust me, this is a manager decision.
Pls focus on "if the problem can be solved"
you are off topic, poll is about puncture (maybe you did not have any so far)
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Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 ) There is an option in race & strategy which is "If a problem occurs, should the driver pit if the problem can be solved? Yes/No". Trust me, this is a manager decision.
Rather embarrassing reply given your status in the game. You know truly well that that option does not cover true randoms.
Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 ) No u don´t. U lost against someone who won 9/17 races and you still believe you lost because of a random. Still disappointed the way u gave up, because you would lose the champ with more than 10 points and u could no longer use that excuse.
ps: Btw, still disappointed how u don´t mention the luck u had to make that initial gap in the championship. No mention about my 3 Q1 dms in a row, no mention about winning against a FAST manager than you in R2 and no mention about blocking the fastest guy in the track when ur driver was completely dead. But, but the "random"...
The problems covered in this thread have nothing to do with the issues mentioned here. You won the championship, congrats. Don't come here and whinge because you think you haven't been given enough credit. We are talking about problems that affect managers across every tier.
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Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 )
There is an option in race & strategy which is "If a problem occurs, should the driver pit if the problem can be solved? Yes/No". Trust me, this is a manager decision.
How does work in particular with a tyre puncture? After X laps being with the car stopped on the service road the driver decides that he can now pit because the manager decided it?
Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 ) no mention about winning against a FAST manager than you in R2
/gb/forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=264&PostId=4937254#post4937254
uhhh...
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ December 30th 2022,01:08:08 ) The problems covered in this thread have nothing to do with the issues mentioned here. You won the championship, congrats. Don't come here and whinge because you think you haven't been given enough credit. We are talking about problems that affect managers across every tier.
I didn't see you reminding anyone about the point of this thread when Dominiek decided to use it to spread lies.
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#46 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 01:19:53 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 01:21:22 por Bruno Caseiro)
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Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ December 30th 2022,01:08:16 ) Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 )
How does work in particular with a tyre puncture? After X laps being with the car stopped on the service road the driver decides that he can now pit because the manager decided it?
Oh, people are only talking about punctures here? Sorry , didn´t realise that.
Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ December 30th 2022,01:08:16 ) Quote ( Bruno Caseiro @ December 30th 2022,00:59:07 )
/gb/forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=264&PostId=4937254#post4937254
uhhh...
uh? Can´t find any mention, for example, about the importance of those 4 points in the final standings. All I hear about is a championship was lost because of a random, but shh...
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#47 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 01:23:42 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 01:28:37 por Sam Tipple)
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Quote ( Vladimir Valis @ December 30th 2022,01:16:55 ) I didn't see you reminding anyone about the point of this thread when Dominiek decided to use it to spread lies.
What lie? That he likes a fair battle? One, this is an opinion, how can it be a lie? Secondly, if Dom does not like a fair battle, how the f*** am I supposed to know (or care) that he is lieing?
I have a lot of respect for Malati. What I don't appreciate is the mudslinging match that has started here. Bruno doesn't like what Dom said? That's fine, but it's not relevant and does not benefit people. The problems here affect everyone, not just Elite.
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I love randoms so much I want more. If I get randoms it gives me excuses of why I sucked that season (most every season). With out randoms I can only blame myself.
So I say #BringOnTheRandoms :)
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ December 30th 2022,01:23:42 ) What lie? That he likes a fair battle? One this is an opinion, how can it be a lie? Secondly, if Dom does not lile a fair battle, how the f*** am I supposed to know (or care) that he is lieing?
I have a lot of respect for Malati. What I don't appreciate is the mudslinging match that has started here. Bruno doesn't like what Dom said? That's fine, but it's not relevant and does not benefit people. The problems here affect everyone, not just Elite.
Saying that he basically lost the title due to a random is not only a lie but also something plain disrespectful to say. I'm sorry for the offtopic because I've been trying to push the randoms conversation for years now but you can't expect people not to react to a statement like that.
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Quote ( Vladimir Valis @ December 30th 2022,01:28:29 ) Saying that he basically lost the title due to a random is not only a lie but also something plain disrespectful to say. I'm sorry for the offtopic because I've been trying to push the randoms conversation for years now but you can't expect people not to react to a statement like that.
Vlad, I have a lot of respect for you but I don't agree. We are adults here. Bruno was a worthy champion. If Dom said something that upset you guys, just ignore it. The main topic here is eliminating randoms. They serve no purpose other than to give people grief.
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ December 30th 2022,00:34:26 ) Choosing slicks, that is an impact that comes from a choice the manager has made.
Choosing Contis over Badyears, then you are taking the risk on an OBP tyre that will come good in certain weather conditions. Again, this is a choice made by the manager.
Yes, the manager gets to choose which ticket he buys. Then, all you can do is enjoy the ride. It's just as random as a puncture. As for Whiting starts, there are indeed some races where it is clear which choice is better on average, and you can go for the other option if you are in a position where it makes sense to gamble. That's a manager's decision. There's also plenty of times where it's basically a coinflip decision, though. But where it can have a big impact if the coin doesn't fall your way.
I know that Conties are OBP tyres (in Elite, surrounded by Hancocks and Michis, Badyears are just as OBP as Conties btw), but I specifically mentioned average weather, which has an impact on your finances regardless of whether you picked an OBP tyre or not. The season turning our colder or hotter or wetter or drier than average is not something you influence with your tyre selection.
Quote ( Sam Tipple @ December 30th 2022,00:34:26 ) I'm sorry but if you are talking about one race being the difference between retention and relegation, then you cannot complain.
What's the whole point of this topic then? Complaining about a puncture is also complaining about one race.
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#52 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 01:40:20 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 01:56:37 por Ivan Silva)
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We are talking about financial repercussions here.
Punctures have been able to ease up the financial repercussions a bit.
Pure randoms do not.
The point some people are missing is that some randoms have bigger financial repercussions than others. There is sponsor progress (and future revenue) in risk, there's the momentum break from loss of driver motivation which affects pace on future races, there's the simple fact randoms do not take in consideration the ammount you had invested prior to that race and the fact the ROI will be much lower now, the point gaps which might affect EoS bonuses, the fact race ending randoms also cause you to not complete 90% of the race distance or that they f*** up your entire PHA allignment plan.
Im sorry but you cant really argue that a random on a race when someone invests, lets say, 35M on the car is not a game changer. When you invest big you expect big return, this is a management decision and you know it. When a random comes at a time of a big investment sorry but i cannot agree that the consequences are not significant. Expecially on top tiers.
Again back to punctures, the financial penalty has been lowered here as i've stated previously so i am not against their existance (despite not liking to see them happening nonetheless).
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#53 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 01:54:28 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 01:55:48 por Sam Tipple)
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 30th 2022,01:39:37 ) What's the whole point of this topic then? Complaining about a puncture is also complaining about one race.
As Ivan stated, the main problems with randoms are the financial repercussions. If I don't make the 90% distance in the upper tiers, I can lose $10-20 milllion at least. Your point was about getting stuck in traffic. The result of that is nowhere near the same figure.
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Indeed, in this specific case of Branislav vs me in R15, besides being the difference between retention and relegation, we are talking about a financial impact of 4.5 million (considering everything except negative effects of moti loss on following races, because that's too hard to estimate at 2 in the morning). Where do you put the line between being enough to complain about it and not enough? Please allow me a little chuckle by saying, I'm sure you put it somewhere random. :P
Season weather being above or below average can have financial impacts exceeding 10-20 million. By a very long way.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 29th 2022,23:13:10 )
Believe me, the random elements that I listed there have a bigger impact on race results (and championship results) than tyre punctures, start accidents and technical problems.
I'm sorry but i don't totally agree, imho the things that are happening almost every race or quite often will be equal between all of us. I'm not saying that it is totally fair but definitely it feels better than a race ending random. Qualy gain in example, maybe this race you do a super Q, then the next one your gain could be bad.
I still think that there are many bad things that happens or can happen when you have a random during a race and they are even worse when it is a race-ending random. Ania pointed some examples but there could happen more extreme cases than those.
Having a puncture while OBPing (and it can make you relegate), also while you're battling a close sponsor but that's not everything, it may happen only to you in the whole game along the whole season! So that's why i think that it is so unfair. I've seen punctures deciding relegations as i said before, punctures deciding final standing places and promotions, punctures highly influencing sponsor negotiations and all of that has huge impact in the outcome of the game but as i insist, since it doesn't happen to anyone on similar moments, i don't feel that it is fair.
I agree that in example the thing about driver retiring when they're younger than 35 is one of the worst 'random' things, if i remember correctly Ania's driver retired at 33 Y/O when her driver was pretty solid and maybe she could fight for a championship in a future with him.
I mean, there is a thin line between the acceptable and unacceptable about randomness but i think the most of us agree that this thing (Puncture / race ending random) is something negative for the game experience.
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Please don't take randoms away! They're my only chance to be better than others, because they are sitting on the side of the track
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Randoms are just that, randoms. They happen in real life, so why not in the game. Usually a puncture, in real racing, doesn't put the car out of the race unless the car becomes too damaged. The same can happen here can't it?
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#58 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 08:37:26 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 08:54:07 por Marius Ruţa)
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Quote ( Geoff Todd @ December 30th 2022,07:54:20 ) Randoms are just that, randoms. They happen in real life, so why not in the game. Usually a puncture, in real racing, doesn't put the car out of the race unless the car becomes too damaged. The same can happen here can't it?
I'll give you a few reasons why randoms shouldn't be in the game: because it's a game, it's something most of us use to get away a bit from real life. Because it takes a few seasons to plan something, which then gets affected by something completely random, because it can affect retention/relegation and then future seasons, and all the planning goes to pot. If I plan a push for a track like Bremgarten or one of the Ovals (or any other extreme PHA track) to retain in the higher tiers, and hoard H/P points for half a season, spend quite some money to PHA match, possibly sacrificing future races aswell, I am leading the race and retain is secured, but I get a race ending puncture, it is what it is? "Oh it's just random?". Sorry, that's very bad for my gaming experience., and it's something that would make me consider quitting the game, or just not investing time (and especially money) in the game.
I also saw some percentages from an older post from Vlad, where 3.9% percent of managers racing had a true random, and even if the percentage may be considered low, the fact is some people will be lucky enough to not be in the 4% for a few seasons, whereas others will be on the unlucky side. I got 2 punctures in my 2 Rookie seasons after I returned to the game, one race ending, in my 1st season, and one not, in my promo season, but when I was already leading the race by 16s. And whilst I agree randoms in Rookie are far from being as influential as in other tiers, because of the lack of 90% rule and generally a lot less people racing, so you can easily recover the lost places, it nearly cost me a sponsor. And an achievement. 😀
I've never heard people getting a random saying "oh, it's random, we have it in real life too", mostly it's been words that would probably get me at least a forum warning. 😁
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#59 Postado 30 Dec 2022, 09:30:05 (editado pela última vêz 30 Dec 2022, 09:39:10 por Tomas Dederle)
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Quote ( Marius Ruţa @ December 30th 2022,08:37:26 ) it's something most of us use to get away a bit from real life.
THIS. Randoms are not only about money and ruined season of Elitest... It is general problem. which leaves upset everyone including Rookies as we can see every week in forum. :-)
Why to relax from your real life in the game, which gives you a punch (or puncture)?
Why do you wait impatiently 3-4 days to watch the live race and see yourself out? Is here anybody who felt good when puncture came after all that waiting for the game? Hands up, you perverts..! :-P
I mean IS this feature so important for the game? Do you guys see yourself cheated if you experience no random the whole season? Do you miss that "spice" of the game then?
I recommended earlier to Vlad, if the punishment is a welcomed part of his life, to cancel randoms (except collisions which are not randoms, but result of "only cowards read the manual") completely AT LEAST for not yet settled managers in Rookies...so that the forum gets less cry...:-)
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Quote ( Geoff Todd @ December 30th 2022,07:54:20 ) Randoms are just that, randoms. They happen in real life, so why not in the game. Usually a puncture, in real racing, doesn't put the car out of the race unless the car becomes too damaged. The same can happen here can't it?
That's wrong, IRL tyre punctures are not random, maybe the tyre supplier had a fault tyre, or maybe the driver has step over some debris causing that puncture, or he got too much wear on that tyre.
So saying that is a lie, there are no randoms on real life races, everything happens from something physical reason.
Same happens on some of the others randoms that lots of here seem to defend, in gpro they are pure random when on real races they all come for a reason, if people is ignorant enough to believe it happened by luck or by gods it's another topic
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