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Emne: [F1] 2020 season |
708 svar
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I'm not sure I understand your point here. In what way is making a mistake on your own, leaving the track and rejoining it in an erratic way similar to having a small collision in the middle of a battle for position?
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Apologies that it wasn't clearer, but the parallel I see here is that in both cases the incident was avoidable, if only the driver in question (Vettel 2019 + Hamilton 2020) were prepared to compromise their situation in order to prevent an incident from occurring.
If Vettel 'chose' to carry more speed over the grass resulting in an erratic re-join, then we can all agree that it's a penalty. But if he couldn't have done any different, then should it be deemed a racing incident?
I believe the same applies here.
If Hamilton chose not to let off the throttle enough to prevent a collision with Albon (at the risk of a spin), then Hamilton should be penalised for causing an avoidable collision. However if he had no choice at all, then perhaps it should be deemed a racing incident.
Again, I'm not fully sure what to think in both cases. I think the stewards have rather made a mess in recent years in how they apply rules to the different scenarios. But my post was more to get people to think about how and when we apply the letter vs the spirit of the law.
Edit: *I'm not fully sure
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Quote ( Geoff Atkin @ July 5th 2020,20:15:37 ) whatever your view was in Montreal 2019, should roughly correspond here.
Quote ( Geoff Atkin @ July 5th 2020,20:15:37 ) If you thought in 2019 that Vettel should have fully compromised his track re-entry to prevent any kind of incident with Hamilton, then I think it's fair to say that you should think that Hamilton should have compromised his corner exit once Albon has the high ground.
For what it's worth I don't think the two events can be looked at in such a black & white way. Looking back it does appear I was of the opinion Vettel could've rejoined safely and avoided the penalty, whereas in today's incident I guess I am confident that Hamilton wasn't majority at fault. I'll maintain both points of view I think, as in both cases I was in favour of a racing incident.
But definitely the events cannot be so directly compared. In Canada, the debate was if Vettel could've avoided a penalty. In Austria, it was a debate on who was more at fault.
In Canada there is no way that Hamilton was at fault for what happened, the viewpoint was specifically if Vettel could have re-joined the track safely and avoided blocking Hamilton to receive a penalty. Hamilton was undeniably a victim, Vettel was the potential offender.
In Austria, both drivers could be determined offenders, even if Albon was the victim. There was no clear offender like in Canada (Vettel). Rather than "did driver A's act on driver B deserve a penalty?", it was more "was it driver A's fault or driver B's fault that a collision occurred?".
I get your point of comparing them because they both toe the line of the regulations, but to say your opinions of both should be the same is very tunnel-visioned. My view on both was nothing to do with the limit of regulations and whether either was a penalty-deserving situation because of this, but more evaluating the events to determine whether or not the situation that did accrue a penalty could've been avoided. And my answers for both events are completely independent, because they are not the same event. Although my answers aren't all that different. I do believe both events were avoidable. The main difference being that although I believe the one in Austria was avoidable, it could have been avoided in more ways than one, by either driver.
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Don't know what to make of this one, largely uneventful apart from the incident, I have to say I'd need to watch a few more angles, but I feel like Hamilton should have been given the penalty. Just don't see how Albon could have done any more to give him space interesting to hear that Channel 4 commentary suggested letting Hamilton go to avoid losing too many places, I think that would have backfired and also wouldn't have been very sporting. Anyway the thing before the start was so cringeworthy, would have thought they might have learned from the Premier League. Hopefully it's the last time we have to see it.
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Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ July 5th 2020,21:28:46 ) Anyway the thing before the start was so cringeworthy, would have thought they might have learned from the Premier League. Hopefully it's the last time we have to see it.
What was that? The kneel before the warmup lap?
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 5th 2020,21:00:20 ) For what it's worth I don't think the two events can be looked at in such a black & white way.
Me neither - I think you and I are in the same ballpark here, we just happen to fall the other side of the fence. Which is fine and perhaps why you view what I've said as a false dichotomy.
Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 5th 2020,21:00:20 ) In Austria, it was a debate on who was more at fault.
Unless I've missed something, I think we just disagree here as I don't see where fault can be applied to Albon, much like where I don't see where fault could be have been applied to Hamilton in Montreal. I really do view both as the primary victim of the other party's action.
It seemed to be a straight up overtake around the outside. Outside overtakes carry a lot of risk, but I felt the risk had all but passed at the point of contact.
Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 5th 2020,21:00:20 ) but to say your opinions of both should be the same is very tunnel-visioned.
Yup, perhaps I misspoke there as there are significant shades of grey in both cases. The objective of my post was more to understand why we apply the letter of the law in some cases, and why we apply the spirit of the law (racing incidents) in others. Both incidents are different cases, but the difference alone doesn't explain which filter we're to view these incidents through.
I raise the issue because the FIA does actually respond to fans. But it's not clear to me that fans know exactly what they want (perhaps the clue is in the name: 'fans'!) I think it was Jasper himself who pointed out the the 'let them race' decree was a bit thoughtless and trigger happy - I think he might be right, but the FIA are responding to fans who haven't given much thought to how they actually want racing to be governed.
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Quote ( Geoff Atkin @ July 5th 2020,20:46:07 ) Apologies that it wasn't clearer, but the parallel I see here is that in both cases the incident was avoidable, if only the driver in question (Vettel 2019 + Hamilton 2020) were prepared to compromise their situation in order to prevent an incident from occurring.
If Vettel 'chose' to carry more speed over the grass resulting in an erratic re-join, then we can all agree that it's a penalty. But if he couldn't have done any different, then should it be deemed a racing incident?
Vettel chose to press his right foot down while he was still on the grass and then blamed car instability for not being able to avoid Hamilton. Of course that was his choice.
Quote ( Geoff Atkin @ July 5th 2020,20:46:07 ) But my post was more to get people to think about how and when we apply the letter vs the spirit of the law.
There isn't a letter of the law when it comes to incidents like today, so by definition it's only spirit. The regulations (specifically, Appendix L of the International Sporting Code) only have some items about leaving a car's width during the approach of a corner etc., but not a word of written legislation exists on what is or isn't allowed to do in a corner.
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Quote ( Jun Ho @ July 5th 2020,21:34:26 ) Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ July 5th 2020,21:28:46 )
Anyway the thing before the start was so cringeworthy, would have thought they might have learned from the Premier League. Hopefully it's the last time we have to see it.
What was that? The kneel before the warmup lap?
What else could it have been? If Lewis thinks this is how people are going to get behind him then he is sorely mistaken. I've been a fan of his for years, but I just can't support him any more. And that's despite winning 6 world titles and being the best driver of his generation.
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What exactly is the problem with a person kneeling?
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During the Austrian national anthem?
Protesting the Austrians, not showing the respect to the nation as I'm guessing he believes the country is racist? (this is how it can be perceived)
This is how it became a thing with Colin Kaepernick in the NFL ... why is it different here?
I don't dislike Hamilton because of it tho. He is far too busy to see it as anything else than a reflection of his own experiences which were very bad. He is not a martyr for the BLM movement, he's using the platform to expose racists like Bernie Ecclestone and others, and I respect him for it. Bernie & others in FIA are definitely racist ... look at the nasty crap they've said. Racism is a big problem, some white people in power are narrow minded and definitely need protesting against. However he needs to be a bit more aware about what some actions mean.
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Quote ( Luke Frost @ July 6th 2020,02:45:00 ) During the Austrian national anthem?
It wasn't during any national anthem. It was a moment of silence.
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As far as I can see during the half second before impact Lewis relaxed his steering ever so slightly. Maybe it wasn't intentional, maybe he was just feeling the grip instinctively, and maybe maintaining full lock wouldn't have prevented the collision but this is the kind of thing the stewards tend to look for as evidence of a driver's intention. He wasn't doing absolutely everything he could to avoid an accident so he has some blame.
I don't agree with the penalty though. You could make a good case, maybe a better one, for assigning blame to Alex too. It feels like Lewis got the penalty only because he came off better from the incident?
Still, as a neutral F1 fan I'm mainly just ecstatic my favourite team is now 2nd in the standings and my up-and-coming hero and fellow countryman Lando drove a blinder in the final laps. Go McLaren! And go all the others too, of course. Except Vettel - it's much funnier for us neutral F1 fans when he does badly.
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Quote ( Roland Postle @ July 6th 2020,22:17:48 ) it's much funnier for us neutral F1 fans when he does badly.
F1 has been funny for you ever since Ricardo teamed up with Vettel at red bull?
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If Bottas wins the title he will surely become the most boring personality to win a world title.
I guess Bottas won't care even if that is the case.
Sebastian Vettel can at least sleep better knowing that once he retires to the scrap heap in 4 months time. :)
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ July 6th 2020,23:15:13 ) If Bottas wins the title he will surely become the most boring personality to win a world title.
I guess Bottas won't care even if that is the case.
Sebastian Vettel can at least sleep better knowing that once he retires to the scrap heap in 4 months time. :)
Same, but it would just be a bore to watch Hamilton get the title - we need another person to win the WDC (such as Alex Albon, Charles Leclerc, or even George Russell if he gets a competitive car after Williams) otherwise I would rather watch the Deutsche Touring Masters
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Quote ( Sonny Long @ July 7th 2020,12:13:30 ) would rather watch the Deutsche Touring Masters
Not sure you'll have a choice in 2021 unfortunately :P
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Quote ( Sonny Long @ July 7th 2020,12:13:30 ) we need another person to win the WDC
F1 doesn't need another person to win WDC, that's a bit short sighted.
F1 needs the other teams to get their crap together and be more competitive.
You can't blame Mercedes, they have been on form for many years now and the other teams just haven't been able to keep up. It is not purely engine, if it were there wouldn't be a Mercedes engine finishing last in every race (see Williams). The first year or two may have been purely engine (see Williams not being last) but the engine suppliers closed that gap a good bit fairly quickly.
The team itself, as a whole, has really been a step ahead..... and without much in the way of controversy regarding cheating. The only real discussion regarding possible cheating has been the DAS, which mercedes cleared with the FIA before they installed it.
Ferrari themselves said they had developed a similar system in the past but decided not to run it. That's either a testament to their incompetence as a team or a just them trying to save face (read "oh yea, we already developed that, those guys aren't that smart").
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Mercedes (and Hamilton's) string of essentially uncontested championships has as much to do with the incompetence of the other teams the past few years as it does the genius/skill of Mercedes/Hamilton.
RedBull can't partner with an engine supplier without blaming them for everything.
Ferrari is only good at screwing up every good chance they've got. They should seriously consider just doing the exact opposite of every strategy decision they come up with. At this point if they showed up at the track with the rear wing on the front and the front wing on the back they would probably be better off!
McClaren: They are coming back, finally, but still a long way off. They spent too much time blaming their engine partner when they should have been focused on their aero.
Renault: LOL if they don't get smart and fire Abiteboul soon, he is going to run them into the ground the same way he did Caterham.
Williams: Just sell the team already. Give it to that energy drink company or whatever, even they look more stable than the Williams leadership team. OR, and I just thought of this, convert the team to a nonracing entity and just supply all the other teams with pit crews. Sort of a F1 pit crew staffing agency kind of thing. Only thing they are good at and I've always been told that you should capitalize on your strengths.
The rest: Well, they'll pick up a podium or two from time to time, maybe a win in crazy circumstances, but I doubt you'll ever see one of the smaller teams win the championship anymore.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 7th 2020,13:23:37 ) Quote
F1 doesn't need another person to win WDC, that's a bit short sighted.
F1 needs the other teams to get their crap together and be more competitive.
You can't blame Mercedes, they have been on form for many years now and the other teams just haven't been able to keep up. It is not purely engine, if it were there wouldn't be a Mercedes engine finishing last in every race (see Williams). The first year or two may have been purely engine (see Williams not being last) but the engine suppliers closed that gap a good bit fairly quickly.
The team itself, as a whole, has really been a step ahead..... and without much in the way of controversy regarding cheating. The only real discussion regarding possible cheating has been the DAS, which mercedes cleared with the FIA before they installed it.
Ferrari themselves said they had developed a similar system in the past but decided not to run it. That's either a testament to their incompetence as a team or a just them trying to save face (read "oh yea, we already developed that, those guys aren't that smart").
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Mercedes (and Hamilton's) string of essentially uncontested championships has as much to do with the incompetence of the other teams the past few years as it does the genius/skill of Mercedes/Hamilton.
RedBull can't partner with an engine supplier without blaming them for everything.
Ferrari is only good at screwing up every good chance they've got. They should seriously consider just doing the exact opposite of every strategy decision they come up with. At this point if they showed up at the track with the rear wing on the front and the front wing on the back they would probably be better off!
McClaren: They are coming back, finally, but still a long way off. They spent too much time blaming their engine partner when they should have been focused on their aero.
Renault: LOL if they don't get smart and fire Abiteboul soon, he is going to run them into the ground the same way he did Caterham.
Williams: Just sell the team already. Give it to that energy drink company or whatever, even they look more stable than the Williams leadership team. OR, and I just thought of this, convert the team to a nonracing entity and just supply all the other teams with pit crews. Sort of a F1 pit crew staffing agency kind of thing. Only thing they are good at and I've always been told that you should capitalize on your strengths.
The rest: Well, they'll pick up a podium or two from time to time, maybe a win in crazy circumstances, but I doubt you'll ever see one of the smaller teams win the championship anymore.
considering it, if ferrari get there act and red bull dont have a crappy engine supplier, they can challenge for the WDC then. It isn't that Mercedes are dominating everything, I hate the fact that NOBODY is challenging Mercedes. I just hate it.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 7th 2020,13:16:16 ) Quote ( Sonny Long @ July 7th 2020,12:13:30 )
would rather watch the Deutsche Touring Masters
Not sure you'll have a choice in 2021 unfortunately :P
What do you mean by, wont have a choice to watch it?! Its the only sport i actually have a interest in (along with IndyCar) that doesnt feature Mercs in anyway.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 7th 2020,13:16:16 ) In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Mercedes (and Hamilton's) string of essentially uncontested championships has as much to do with the incompetence of the other teams the past few years as it does the genius/skill of Mercedes/Hamilton.
I completely agree with everything you just said, except this bit I only half agree with.
While Mercedes haven't exactly had everything handed to them - they started life buying up a midfield team, took a gamble that paid off to grant them the 2009 title, then became the best of the rest Merc team in the V8 era, then threw everything at the new rule changes and were rewarded for that in what they are today. It was definitely a well-played journey to the front of the sport.
What I disagree with a little is it's not necessarily the incompetence of the midfield teams that keeps them out of the running, but the game that's being played. I think the top 3 manufacturers are keeping half of the midfield teams afloat by using them as scapegoats, controlling and limiting them while reaping the rewards. Merc, RB, Ferrari control one or two teams each, which essentially stunts their growth to a level below the top teams. The only teams not under any control are McLaren and Renault, and that's evident from their financial struggles lately.
The problem isn't with the incompetence of midfield teams but the way which the sport is developing and how these sorts of exploits are overlooked by the directors. There's simply no way to compete when top teams selectively reinvest their earnings into smaller teams to increase the gap between the front and the middle, while simultaneously helping these teams steal potential earnings from teams who aren't a part of this.
But yeah the way the sport is right now, it would be a miracle for a midfield team to take a title. Heck I'd be shocked if even McLaren managed to make the top 3 a top 4 given their disadvantage.
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Quote ( Sonny Long @ July 7th 2020,14:07:47 )
What do you mean by, wont have a choice to watch it?! Its the only sport i actually have a interest in (along with IndyCar) that doesnt feature Mercs in anyway.
Yeah same it's been one of my favourite single spec series for a while. But since Audi pulled out there have been huge doubts as to whether or not it will continue. At the very least, a hiatus for the series was planned for 2021. There were talks of introducing GT3 cars make the field more diverse and fill it up, but even that's being debated with current teams saying they'd rather just go elsewhere. So who knows, DTM could very possibly be gone by 2022 :/
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I have to say that most teams would look incompetent throughout history when compared to Mercedes, which is being ran like a proper business with one of the great management teams of our time. They focus on morale and objectives in a way where all personnel are doing their best work as they're in an environment to succeed. Yes, other teams have a bad system in comparison, but not everyone can do it. The management at the top of Mercedes is unstoppable right now, and it seems like a much better team to be involved with than most others IMO. My predicition is McLaren will be the team to challenge them next, and it might not be for a few more years to come.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 7th 2020,13:23:37 ) Williams:
I really hope their current situation is just some strategical manoeuvre to secure investment,, certainly it seems a drastic method :/ .. But DD,, I recon you should invest some time into learning some about Sir Frank Williams,, you clearly have no actual scooby doo about who actually runs them and why their leadership roles are likely a tad more challenging.
I can't see Frank selling/giving up control whilst he has life/breath in his body!
They're still on the grid, so that is promising, they have clearly gained/closed the gap on the competition too! so hopefully they can now secure a better deal...
Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 7th 2020,13:23:37 )
sell them already...
Only thing they are good at
History tells an alternative version,,, do you know it? ***(((16)))*** World Championships !! 3rd most successful team ever.... etc etc etc
Sure F1 is progressive and things move on,, but to lose the Williams cars/name from the grid would be a massive massive loss!!!! anyone wanting it to happen any sooner than it does should give their head a wobble ...
Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 7th 2020,13:23:37 ) RedBull can't partner with an engine supplier without blaming them for everything.
Not to mention their slimy pretend we don't do it driver favouritism, and their Hollywood agenda that blows their attention span every other race :D makes their frustrations so funny when it goes wrong :] Horner got a lovely slice of Karma pie this race !! lol and I don't even actively support Hamilton!!
Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 7th 2020,13:23:37 ) Renault:
Think you're wrong here too, though I don't have a massive perspective on Renault, I always thought Cyril had performed well considering the Caterham circumstances, then with Pirreli he was great and the way he dealt with those Red Bull whingers after their 4 Championships were won with solid competitive Renault powerunits.. Quality guy,, always good interviews too.
Great opening race =D
more to come with the uncertainty and reduced calendar,, Great stuff!! :D
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How, on a 1 minute lap time, can Lando pull 1.5secs against potentially the strongest car out there, is beyond me. He deserved that podium finish for sure.
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They would have given him max engine performance for that lap ofc.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 6th 2020,02:31:04 ) What exactly is the problem with a person kneeling?
I don't know about you, but I believe kneeling is a sign of one's acceptance to being subordinate to whomever one is kneeling for, which is a cultural tradition that spans several centuries. If Hamilton wants parity this is not the way to communicate it, especially given his merits. We know that the motorsport community has been behind him throughout his career, so why does he need to compel everyone around him to kiss his ass?
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Mr Alonso coming back in 2021, replacing Ricciardo next season. AWESOME. :D
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Quote ( Jun Ho @ July 7th 2020,16:30:32 ) Mr Alonso coming back in 2021, replacing Ricciardo next season. AWESOME. :D
We will get a 2nd and who knows a 1st this season.
Something was promised to Bottas not long ago. After he had to let Hamilton pass. This year Hamilton will be running over every other contender just for the team work. Can Bottas do it? Hamilton has a lot more cars to hit than Wolf expected. Let the bad boys start figthing because there is a new kid in town. :-)
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