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Emne: [F1] 2020 season |
708 svar
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What a weird race.
Super happy for Lando, a real shame for Albon, but not sure I agree with that Hamilton penalty. Literally nothing different he couldve done other than have braked and risked spinning, so I don't see how it's anything more than a racing incident.
Either way without it Norris couldn't have gotten the podium, very happy for him, he's a great character :)
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 5th 2020,17:00:57 ) Super happy for Lando, a real shame for Albon, but not sure I agree with that Hamilton penalty. Literally nothing different he couldve done other than have braked and risked spinning, so I don't see how it's anything more than a racing incident.
Hamilton pinched him out wide and Albon was ahead.
If Hamilton had been ahead he would have owned the racing line and it would have been Albon's responsibility to back out of it. Since Albon was ahead he owned the line and it was Hamilton's responsibility to give room.
A bit borderline but its definitely deserving of a penalty.
Side note: McClaren are ahead of Ferrari in constructors! Wonder where Alonso is at the moment.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ July 5th 2020,17:00:57 ) Super happy for Lando, a real shame for Albon, but not sure I agree with that Hamilton penalty. Literally nothing different he couldve done other than have braked and risked spinning, so I don't see how it's anything more than a racing incident.
He should have let Albon go. He just kept closing the door even though Albon is already ahead of him. He deserved that 5 second penalty, probably should have been more.
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I'm not sure Hamilton was even on the throttle when they collided. If he wasn't, there was nothing more he could do. If he was... then it's a deserved penalty.
Fun race but what happened to VSC?
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 5th 2020,17:07:03 ) I'm not sure Hamilton was even on the throttle when they collided. If he wasn't, there was nothing more he could do. If he was... then it's a deserved penalty.
He just needs to turn his steering wheel right. But he just kept going straight, closing the gap to Albon. Doesn't matter if he was on the throttle or not, he should back out.
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Albon would have 2 podiums by now..
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 5th 2020,17:07:03 ) Fun race but what happened to VSC?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they usually do not do a virtual safety car when equipment needs to be brought on track to recover a vehicle? At least not since Bianchi.
A lot of these tracks could take some lessons in vehicle recovery from Monoco. Takes way too long on some tracks.
Quote ( Jun Ho @ July 5th 2020,17:09:05 ) Doesn't matter if he was on the throttle or not, he should back out.
I fully believe the penalty was fair in this case.
But your statement here is ridiculous. So if he had been off the throttle (IE nowhere to "back to") you saying he should have put it in reverse or something?
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 5th 2020,17:10:35 ) So if he had been off the throttle (IE nowhere to "back to") you saying he should have put it in reverse or something?
TURN THE WHEEL. Does not require the throttle. When you see it from Hamilton's perspective, he just kept his wheel straight after the corner....
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There was a similar move at Turn 4 between Norris and someone else (Perez or Sainz possibly?) a few laps before at the same corner, where Norris left the space and lost a position. You might need to lock your brakes to avoid contact - but a driver of Hamilton's experience should have expected the move and been alive to the possibility of Albon being on the outside.
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More of this next week please.
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Racing incident. Penalty was not needed.
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That was brilliant.
Clumsy from Hamilton, fully deserving of a penalty in my view. He won't be too disheartened though, it'll only take him two 1-2s to take the championship lead, and I expect most races this season to be Mercedes 1-2s in one order or another.
Great driving from Norris, he certainly knows how to do a quick lap at Austria when needed, first in quali and then at the end of the race there. Leclerc also did a brilliant 2012 Alonsoesque drive to get 2nd.
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Quote ( Marcelo Ascencio @ July 5th 2020,17:10:12 ) Albon would have 2 podiums by now..
He had to retire the car, what race were you watching?
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Quote ( Jun Ho @ July 5th 2020,17:09:05 ) He just needs to turn his steering wheel right. But he just kept going straight, closing the gap to Albon. Doesn't matter if he was on the throttle or not, he should back out.
That's not how it works. You're on the limit of grip when you're in the corner, otherwise you're not racing. If he'd "just turned the steering wheel right", he'd have broken the grip limit and understeered into Albon's side. This is why the car on the outside can never simply slam the door shut. Albon had it happen to him twice in consecutive races now. Sure Hamilton takes the blame, but maybe some day soon, Albon will learn... Admittedly I think Hamilton looked worse today than he did at Interlagos.
If Hamilton was going back on the throttle before the collision, then there is no discussion at all that he was at fault though.
Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 5th 2020,17:10:35 ) Correct me if I'm wrong, but they usually do not do a virtual safety car when equipment needs to be brought on track to recover a vehicle? At least not since Bianchi.
VSC was conceived after Bianchi, to be used in exactly those circumstances.
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Think tthe neutral F1 fan like me won today. We've seen a great race! Lot's of surprises, strategy decisions, some great overtaking and severe dissapointments.
Of course a bit dissapointed due VER DNF (although neutral, can't blame me for supporting someone of same nation, a nation that hasn't been particular succesful in F1 as well ;) ) but all in all great season starter with 3 different teams on the podium. Nice one for Norris!
HAM didn't deserve a penalty imo BUT sort of glad he did though cause of nationality... (I mean come on; a dutch F1 champ some day... maybe this season... A talent like VER is the icing on the cake to me)
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Quote ( Sam Wainwright @ July 5th 2020,17:31:32 ) Clumsy from Hamilton, fully deserving of a penalty in my view.
Where the hell do you think Hamilton was meant to go Sam ?
Across the grass on the inside of the corner ?
If you watch it closely, Hamilton took the apex, & gave room.
You forget, the vision in an F1 car is extremely limited & the blind spot is huge.
It is only their professionalism & awareness that makes them aware that a car is possibly trying to OT on the outside.
Moreover, any professional racing driver knows that trying to OT on the outside carries quite a large element of risk. Therefore they are "Throwing caution to the Wind", in many cases.
This is the entire reason that most of us enjoy motorsport.
For me, this was a racing incident.
No penalty was needed.
Things like this tend to balance out over a season & or career.
Too much intervention from stewards, can & will destroy the spectacle we know & love
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ July 5th 2020,17:38:26 ) You're on the limit of grip when you're in the corner, otherwise you're not racing. It was after the turn... Place where you should accelerate and he was going straight... Would of been strange if he did not accelerate at this point...
That penalty came bit surprisingly as there have been more brutal incidents without any penalties.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ July 5th 2020,17:03:38 ) If Hamilton had been ahead he would have owned the racing line and it would have been Albon's responsibility to back out of it. Since Albon was ahead he owned the line and it was Hamilton's responsibility to give room.
I echo what Jasper said. From Hamilton's on-board, revs were slightly dropping and his steering input never changed, meaning his steering arc was tightening, not widening. More steering input would've likely resulted simply in understeer. Less throttle could've unsettled the car and caused a snap at the rear, causing Hamilton to correct with the throttle and send him towards the kerb that way. And braking would've outright spun the car at that sort of steering angle.
I think it was avoidable. If Hamilton realised earlier that Albon wasn't giving in he could've tightened his line earlier. But similarly, Albon had room on the other side of the red and white kerb that he could've utilised, or he could've backed out sooner.
But because of that, to me it seemed like a racing incident, certainly I couldn't personally comfortably put a singificant majority blame on either individual. At the very least, I thought the stewards were very quick with their decision to give Hamilton a penalty.
Either way, the end result was a cool podium. :)
E: found a video of the incident including Hamilton's on-board, to reinforce my point. 16-19s for Hamilton's on-board of the move. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taWSs4Vk33A&ab_channel=F...
I think this is the point where Hamilton can no longer tighten his line, just after leaving the apex: https://i.gyazo.com/fd89079e385a574a7e0b16c79aba7836.jpg
And this is the exact frame they touch: https://i.gyazo.com/a64aee525b434156038fb5483831e2b5.jpg
No steering deviation from Hamilton at all in this exchange, and revs stayed very consistent (maybe they didn't drop).
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Hamilton couldn't do anything... Last year Lecrerc and Verstappen was much 'worse' but they let it go... Which was the right call imo. All you can say F1 stewards aren't very consistent. Perhaps F1 needs a VAR ;)
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Leclerc overtook Norris in the same corner in a similar matter, be it that Charles was ahead of Norris earlier on going into the corner ... So it can be done, all it needs is mutual respect ... If any driver out there should be able to know how to proceed in these circumstances, it would have been the 6 time WC ...
The Mercs having to stay of the kerbs didn't help, it allowed for less room available in the corner. Also there might have been a bit more room left to Albon on his left ...
Whether it was a smart move by Albon is another matter, he might have taken Hamilton later-on, after all he was on Softs ... Same goes for Hamilton, if he would have let Albon go, could he have picked him of later-on purely on Merc power? At least he would have come in third, not fourth ...
Whichever way you wanna turn it, it's unfortunate for all involved, plus at this moment in time, I still have no clue if Albon's DNF was due to a possible issue resulting from the touch or if it was unrelated ...
However, to sum it up, a heck of a race, looking forward to next week!
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ July 5th 2020,18:45:58 ) I still have no clue if Albon's DNF was due to a possible issue resulting from the touch or if it was unrelated ...
Think it was urelated. And that's troublesome for a neutral F1 vieuwer. Even more for one which obviosly supports a fellow countrymen.
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After re-watching it again, I retract my previous posts. Hamilton was fully locked to the right. Any more and he will run straight into Albon due to understeer. Fair enough, maybe a penalty was not warranted as he could not have done much to avoid, whereas Albon had a bit more room on the left to maybe avoid the contact.
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Simply put: Hamilton couldn't do anything else! It was simply a racing accicdent.
I can't help to think with VER already out they had to do something to save the season from being dull from the start and this was the simple occassion... (with no seats to be sold,, they HAVE no other choice than to keep it interesting.... Everyone expects that battle..
We've seen before they will take such opportunity...) No good to F1 long run though...
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Quote ( Andrew Wilden @ July 5th 2020,17:47:36 ) Where the hell do you think Hamilton was meant to go Sam ?
Across the grass on the inside of the corner ?
If you watch it closely, Hamilton took the apex, & gave room.
You forget, the vision in an F1 car is extremely limited & the blind spot is huge.
It is only their professionalism & awareness that makes them aware that a car is possibly trying to OT on the outside.
Moreover, any professional racing driver knows that trying to OT on the outside carries quite a large element of risk. Therefore they are "Throwing caution to the Wind", in many cases.
This is the entire reason that most of us enjoy motorsport.
For me, this was a racing incident.
No penalty was needed.
Things like this tend to balance out over a season & or career.
I've watched it again and I've changed my mind, same as Jun. On first watch to me it looked like he simply ran Albon out of road leaving him to either run through the gravel or crash, but seeing it again I get that the only way for him to have avoided it would have been to have given up the corner extremely early, which I doubt any driver would have done when they had the inside line.
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Hey, we live and learn right Sam? :D
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Quote ( Jun Ho @ July 5th 2020,19:22:16 ) Hey, we live and learn right Sam? :D
Everyone except Grojean :D
Idk what was with him today, didn't he get shown a b&w flag lol
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Quote ( Sam Wainwright @ July 5th 2020,19:20:03 ) Quote ( Andrew Wilden @ July 5th 2020,17:47:36 )
Where the hell do you think Hamilton was meant to go Sam ?
Across the grass on the inside of the corner ?
If you watch it closely, Hamilton took the apex, & gave room.
You forget, the vision in an F1 car is extremely limited & the blind spot is huge.
It is only their professionalism & awareness that makes them aware that a car is possibly trying to OT on the outside.
Moreover, any professional racing driver knows that trying to OT on the outside carries quite a large element of risk. Therefore they are "Throwing caution to the Wind", in many cases.
This is the entire reason that most of us enjoy motorsport.
For me, this was a racing incident.
No penalty was needed.
Things like this tend to balance out over a season & or career.
I've watched it again and I've changed my mind, same as Jun. On first watch to me it looked like he simply ran Albon out of road leaving him to either run through the gravel or crash, but seeing it again I get that the only way for him to have avoided it would have been to have given up the corner extremely early, which I doubt any driver would have done when they had the inside line.
Come'on I know Andrew is older than me, not sure about you but this one was clear from first view even for - maybe particularly to -us oldies :P
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Quote ( Jay De Snoo @ July 5th 2020,19:24:23 ) Come'on I know Andrew is older than me, not sure about you but this one was clear from first view even for - maybe particularly to -us oldies :P
Was probably just my desire to see Mercedes suffer that blinded me :D
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Quote ( Sam Wainwright @ July 5th 2020,19:32:24 ) Was probably just my desire to see Mercedes suffer that blinded me :D
I get what you mean. Without the incident, Albon had a very real chance to win the race, which is massively disappointing :L
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Edit: Shit, sorry - that was a Edwin Silva length post. Apologies in advance!
I have to say that some of the responses here are very interesting - and thankfully compared to the rest of the internet, much more measured!
For what it's worth, I don't really know what the 'correct' answer is to today's incident. What I do know though is that we had an incident about 12 months ago that on the face of it, is a totally different scenario. Yet based on what's being discussed here, it's much more relevant than it looks. I avoided commenting on this one at the time, but was amazed to see so many strong opinions on an incident that didn't appear clear cut to me at all.
Last year, Vettel made an error under pressure from Hamilton, runs onto the grass and on re-joining the track, impedes Hamilton who has to hit the brakes to avoid a collision.
It was a clear breach of a regulation. But Vettel argued that he 'could not have done any different'. As I recall it, the vast majority of ex-F1 drivers and pundits (including Hamilton) agreed that he could not have reasonably been expected to have done any different, and doing otherwise could have presented a more dangerous scenario given the corner, surface, gradient etc of the corner.
The central debate then became about the following:
at what point does the letter of the law become the spirit of the law? (or vice versa)
Which brings us to today's incident.
Once Albon pulls a half a cars length on Hamilton, I think it's clear that Hamilton has a duty to leave enough space for Albon. I think he's even required to by the regulations, but someone is free to fact check me on this. Hamilton did what we expect all elite drivers do, they leave a car's width plus an inch. Today Hamilton misjudged this by roughly an inch, and contact from behind was made.
Much like Vettel in Montreal, it doesn't look to me that Hamilton could have done much different. After all he was on full-lock, and with cold tyres, coming off the accelerator risks oversteer on exit. But should any of that matter?
Once again, I don't think there's a clear answer here.
But I feel comfortable in saying that based on 'letter of the law' vs 'spirit of the law', whatever your view was in Montreal 2019, should roughly correspond here. If memory serves me right, I see a couple of people here who have taken the opposite sides of each debate.
If you thought in 2019 that Vettel should have fully compromised his track re-entry to prevent any kind of incident with Hamilton, then I think it's fair to say that you should think that Hamilton should have compromised his corner exit once Albon has the high ground.
I'm not totally agnostic here, I think a 5s penalty in both cases is the 'least worst option' although I have no strong feelings either way. But I thought it would be interesting to bring up a case that I think is more of a parallel to today's than first appears.
Thankfully, Albon had a car failure which makes the 'what-might-have-been' effect less unfortunate!
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