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Aihe: Tactical flexibilitie |
31 vastausta
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#1 lähetetty 1.04.2011, 08:01:55
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Maybe its possible after some seasons to have more tactical oortunities, that everyone can be more individual on his racing strategy? I think this is necessery to not make gpro boring one day...
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tactical possibilites as in what?
the admins has already ruled out changes while racing so that will never happen
maybe you want to design your own car parts? :)
yehey i can like my own post! :)
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no something in race setup. I think like not drive if tyres left less than 15 procent and go to pits, or for every pit more special instructions for driver, like pit first time if its more than 40 laps remaining and you have 9 percent left on tyres... and everything more detailed. like to have more flexible tactical play like to have 2 ways to go the race.... but not stupidly stop for your gums at the last lap...when everyone on track is going for finnish...
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Quote ( Arnas Peikstenis @ April 1st 2011,08:16:23 )
Maybe its possible after some seasons to have more tactical oortunities, that everyone can be more individual on his racing strategy?
In your group in the last race there was a mixture of 1, 2 and 3 stop strategies. So I'd summize that people did have "individual" strategies.
Quote ( Arnas Peikstenis @ April 1st 2011,08:16:23 )
but not stupidly stop for your gums at the last lap...when everyone on track is going for finnish...
well... if tyres are about to blow, you really need new ones.
Quote ( Arnas Peikstenis @ April 1st 2011,08:16:23 )
like pit first time if its more than 40 laps remaining and you have 9 percent left on tyres...
You can already do that... you can control your pitstops with fuel, not tyres
Quote ( Arnas Peikstenis @ April 1st 2011,08:16:23 )
for every pit more special instructions for driver
Order him/her to change helmet in pit ? :P :D ;)
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#5 lähetetty 1.04.2011, 08:24:38 (viimeksi muokattu 1.04.2011, 08:35:35 Jerome Manzon toimesta)
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Quote ( Arnas Peikstenis @ April 1st 2011,08:16:23 )
but not stupidly stop for your gums at the last lap so that's why you want a more detailed racing strategy?
Lol, hehe, but I love the current rules,<IMO> I am very happy to see people going pits on the final lap...<devil laugh> no offense! :)
anyway, sometimes commiting mistakes makes racing more enjoyable as well as more interesting...
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 1st 2011,08:17:23 )
Change helmet in pit ? :P :D ;) LoL
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#6 lähetetty 1.04.2011, 08:36:21
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 1st 2011,08:17:23 )
You can already do that... you can control your pitstops with fuel, not tyres Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 1st 2011,08:17:23 )
well... if tyres are about to blow, you really need new ones.
You're really not fair, giving an answer so quick that's complete.
As Mikko says, you can use fuel to control your pitstops & if you're worried about last lap pitstops, just put in a extra amount of fuel on your last pitstop as a safety net or chose a more conservative tyre.
Those strategies are already in the game. It just takes a bit of time to master it.
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#7 lähetetty 1.04.2011, 08:39:49
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Maybe 2 sets of risk could be an idea for if you have been stuck behind someone with high defence risks for more than 5 lap in a really race if you were a lot faster than the person in front you would push harder and risk a little more to get by so as not to ruin your race or something similar for the 3 lap leading up to your pit stop
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#8 lähetetty 1.04.2011, 08:40:04
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Quote ( Brian Branch @ April 1st 2011,08:36:21 )
You're really not fair, giving an answer so quick that's complete.
You're right :)
I might have been a bit blunt, sorry... need sleep...
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#9 lähetetty 1.04.2011, 08:46:41
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I think he was just complimenting you on your quick response.
Like they said, that's the challenge of the game to learn how to control your strategy with fuel and other settings.
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There are a lot of possible options that would make sense. The difficulty is to implement it in a way that doesn't turn it into a programming exercise in logical programming.
Risk for example, lets say I run 59CT to push for points. If I get ahead by 30sec in first place, it would make sense for the driver to let off a bit and control the situation rather than keep pushing to win by a minute. There are many things like this that would make it "sense". Same when it stops raining with 3 laps to go and you've set "wait 2 laps".. It really doesn't make sense for the driver to stop.
I understand people love the simplicity of the current system and I largely agree that it is a slim balance between enough and too much detail. Personally, I'd like more detail but I'm also fine with what is now if more details would mean hundreds or thousands of managers not feeling they have enough time for it..
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Quote ( Pål Göran Stensson @ April 1st 2011,09:20:48 )
more details would mean hundreds or thousands of managers not feeling they have enough time for it..
This happens in other online racing manager games I know of & as you said, managers come & go because of the enormous amounts of time necessary to be competitive.
Sometimes simple is better
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I feel even in this game, if you want to go to elite you will spent as much time as the other games, researching.
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Quote ( Andy Reid @ April 1st 2011,08:39:49 )
Maybe 2 sets of risk could be an idea for if you have been stuck behind someone with high defence risks for more than 5 lap in a really race if you were a lot faster than the person in front
I use three tyres of race risk, normal clear track risk, overtaking risk for when I want to pass those annoying slow guys & defence risk to block other faster guys.
You might be wanting the overtake risk option :)
Quote ( Pål Göran Stensson @ April 1st 2011,09:20:48 )
Risk for example, lets say I run 59CT to push for points. If I get ahead by 30sec in first place, it would make sense for the driver to let off a bit and control the situation rather than keep pushing to win by a minute
Wouldn't that take away strategy? Currently you must try to work out what risk you need to achieve your goals, and have the possibility of guessing wrong.
Under your system, it'd be simply 'have max risk until 30 secs ahead, then slow down'. Total elimination of risk strategy.
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Quote ( Brian Branch @ April 1st 2011,13:32:09 )
Total elimination of risk strategy.
That is simplifying things for no obvious reasons. This generally says that the less granularity the more strategy. I beg to differ.
My examples were simply examples of where there is a mismatch between logical behavior and game mechanics. I moved on to say that this is perhaps a necessity from a player retention perspective.
Personally, I would have liked some type of customizable AI on the driver. The RPG Dragon Age e.g. allow you to set actions to the friendly npc, this is in its turn controlled by an ability that governs the number of slots available. In that case, you can do a lot of things with it and get into rather complicated scenarios.
However, a similar system could work here where you get 1-5 slots depending on some driver ability where you could do some extra customization to your strategy. I believe it would add flavor and some more options than today. Rather than a max risk until 30 sec ahead there could be an option for setting separate risk per stint for example and would take up one slot for that race. I'm sure one could find 20-30 of similar options to use.
Strategy now is fairly predictable and there are usually very little difference in it between the top drivers in a race.. Adding some variance here would be beneficial, imho. Where some would like this variance form random events striking arbitrarily, I prefer it from multiple good choices as a differentiator..
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basically, you want a driver that can think for himself in race conditions
to be frank, if we can have that, then what's the need for a manager like us? ;)
in this game, you're the boss of your own single car team. if your driver can defy you by not following your instructions because it isn't logical, what's the point of giving him instructions in the first place?
take your example of being ahead by 30 secs
the driver is just following your instructions to push that much
what if he has to do an extra pitstop because he needs more fuel/new tires?
basically, this is not a driver's game. it's a manager's
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Quote ( Roy Go @ April 1st 2011,14:20:14 )
in this game, you're the boss of your own single car team. if your driver can defy you by not following your instructions because it isn't logical, what's the point of giving him instructions in the first place?
I think you misunderstood. My intention was to mention possible ways of giving more detailed guidelines for the driver to follow to avoid situations that would look utterly stupid in the real world. Not to have the driver defy my instructions.
As I already said, I can only see one sole reason for not doing this and that is that the more complicated the game the more managers are going to give up. However, allowing some multi-selection options of variance on driver strategies should hardly have that effect anyways. The managers that couldn't handle that are likely stuck in rookie for a few races and will quit anyways.
Quote ( Roy Go @ April 1st 2011,14:20:14 )
basically, this is not a driver's game. it's a manager's
This is just partially true, mapping the GPRO player towards a real racing team would show that we actually possess the roles of a number of different members of the team. PR, Finances, R&D etc. etc. If you were the team manager only you like would have little impact on strategy at all. You'd have staff dedicated to this alone. Hence, as we already cover a number of roles, I don't see this is a reason why we cannot affect driver decisions to a greater extent.
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Some time ago we discussed different ways of giving some sort of special orders for race setup. They were in the form of if X then Y else normal setting. Those events would be related to special events, things like driving in the points, or during last stint, or when having tech problems.
A player could maybe choose a maximum of 3 such special events settings to be chosen from a preset set of 30(?) conditions.
Or maybe even be able to combine the X with Y in a more free (and possibly conflicting and idiotic) way.
Yet, there is a major downside of these options, 1) being that there is no guarantee such events will actually happen and 2) adjusted race settings may screw the normal race settings and as manger you are still responsible for the complete picture. Just as i too can think of several ways this could be usefull, i can also think of ways were it will backfire or not solve the perceived problem.
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Yes, I agree. There is going to require some good design to implement them in a way that it will not impact things badly. Some would require more consideration than others. Also, choosing a bad option for the wrong conditions could have an adverse effect which is ok to me.
However, an example from my scenario above and my last race. I went for XS tyres and thought they'd hold even if by a slim margin (They didn't). However, I was mostly concerned for the second stint that would be warmer. If I could have set risk separately for the stints, I would have chosen a lower risk for stint two than one and three. Imho, this would add a lot of strategy to the game where a smart choice of options could for example give you one up on the opposition by managing to run on softer tyres.
Having options for handling things that might not occur is fine by me as well. Could be seen as a chance to "purchase" an insurance.
Currently, the differentiator in races are basically the managerial aspects of money/driver management rather than chosen race strategy. Of course, there are always a set of managers that makes mistakes with the strategy (Like me in my last race). However, 4/5 top drivers will usually have the same strategy, give or take a lap on stops.
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i like the sound of maybe having the choice to set the clear track risk different .But i agree it still comes down to fuel/tyre choice on your strategy
but heck i am still very much at the noobie stage so it might not be as good as it sounds
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pål, your example is IMO what should not be covered by such conditional settings. Like you said, it is your mistake. It should be reserved for thngs like; if in points reduce risk to x
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Shrug, you could make an identical mistake even with those settings. It might even tempt you to push the limit further causing more mistakes. Of course, the more options you allow the closer you can get to some sort of perfect strategy but it will also allow for a larger variation of options meaning more places to go wrong.
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Quote ( Pål Göran Stensson @ April 1st 2011,18:09:19 )
Shrug, you could make an identical mistake even with those settings.
Yes, but the the point is that in case of extra options IMo it is not intended for things like:
IF normal strategy causes me to go one lap short THEN compensate by reducing risk in next stint
but rather things like
IF current position is podium THEN defend like hell
or
IF stuck behind person for 5 laps THEN do-or-die-attack
both with some sort of risk or penality obvioulsy
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Yah, I agree. I wouldn't set it as a if(stint_short) do_stuff either.
However, predefining stint 1: ct 69, stint 2: ct 29, stint 3: ct 49 is ok. No condition on that one at all but rather a different type of strategy.
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If you were allowed to change risk and settings at pitstops it might go some way to allowing a flexible strategy approach.
This would give you the option to push until a certain pit then back off or vice versa.
It would also allow changes in setup for rain/dry or just for the 'hell of it' although to do that is maybe unrealistic.
This wouldn't make the game easier but it would add a level of detail!
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So far this game is fine the way it is, it just needs two things more detailed parts like make your own parts or buy them from other teams and the new f1 2011 rules like top 10 places get points not 8
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yea to change car setup on pits really looks unrealistic and going to overload player.
but to introduce driver's different risk approach on every racing stint is (as for me) good idea. not too hard to implement and use it.
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#27 lähetetty 2.04.2011, 07:48:34 (viimeksi muokattu 2.04.2011, 07:49:03 Roy Go toimesta)
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Quote ( Leonard Impiglia @ April 1st 2011,23:24:04 )
So far this game is fine the way it is, it just needs two things more detailed parts like make your own parts or buy them from other teams and the new f1 2011 rules like top 10 places get points not 8
the game will lose like 90% of it's customer base if this was ever implemented lol
stint risks will screw up wear data gathering unless we had stint wear data lol
for your examples Pål, it's like you're talking like a person that is having a hard time and wanting to change the game to fit you.
like your mistake that could have been avoided if there were other strategy options. you made a mistake. deal with it as every one of us has in the past, now, and in the future. it's what makes this game great. in this game, it is good to make mistakes. more strategy choices means less mistakes. less mistakes = boring game
you are masking the reality that the more details you are refering to will actually make the game a lot easier than it is now.
why do i have the feeling these suggestions have been said and shot down before...
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Quote ( Roy Go @ April 2nd 2011,07:48:34 )
you're talking like a person that is having a hard time and wanting to change the game to fit you.
That was not my intention at all and I went some distance to say that it might not be the best for GPRO to increase the complexity. There are others that are a better judge of the overall picture than I am.
Using examples from my own short career is just a way to illustrate what I mean and by no means meaning that I try to push my own shortcomings over on the game. I'd suggest trying to evaluate new suggestions based on their merits rather than the coach making it or your own biased conceptions..
I have a feeling a large portion of the current managers are so scared that their precious data may somehow get invalidated by changes that they want a static game. A static game will eventually die out. I've both played, designed and written games and the playerbase is always scared of change. Not changing is in the end always worse though.
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try a few more seasons pls then come back here and say these things again
i assure you you will have a very different point of view
you've only experienced the lower levels where it is all pretty basic
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Quote ( Roy Go @ April 2nd 2011,13:16:26 )
try a few more seasons pls then come back here and say these things again
i assure you you will have a very different point of view
you've only experienced the lower levels where it is all pretty basic
I will, never suggested I wouldn't. However, I suggest you work on your condescending approach to new suggestions. It is my experience that you get much further in life with a somewhat more considerate and humble approach to new opinions.
I might regret it eventually but I would call the lower levels much easier rather than more basic. From what I can tell, the additions of complexity in the higher levels are limited to TD and tyres. I'm sure this makes things a little harder to calculate but not horribly so. In the end, the game mechanics aren't amazingly complex as it is but the competition is big given the number of managers in the game. Of course, this will make the upper echelons of the game very hard. I hope to get there eventually but I'm well aware that there are smarter people than myself out there with the same goal..
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