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Topic: 90% rule (again) |
704 replies
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What's confusing though is - again - the new race viewer: that one - at the time of Dan's retirement - shows the leader at 76 or 77 laps, and Dan at 72. He also crossed the line 72 times before retiring...
Rocket science :D
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#632 posted Aug 29th 2018, 17:28:43 (last edited Aug 29th 2018, 17:31:56 by Dan Reed)
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ August 29th 2018,17:19:58 ) Yes, this is the way you have to look at it. Your car completed a distance of 72 laps but you get a 'penalty' because you were very slow.
In the old race viewer, you will see your car still in the race in lap 72, but it will say "+4 laps". And you will see it out of the race in lap 73. So your distance covered in the race summary is 72-4=68.
I'm not too bothered, the 90% rule has always been a bit of a mystery even before the new race viewer.
My issue with this is why does Analysis then show 72 laps completed. Also if analysis seems to be more accurate on calculating distance then why is summary used for the 90% calculation?
If there is a penalty for being slow why is this not mentioned in the rules? according to the data I completed more than 90%. There is no mention (that I know of) in the rules that says we will be penalised for 'being too slow'.
more of you replied while typing.
What i'm saying is;
Leader was on lap 76
I was on lap 72
I retired
Summary says I completed 68
analysis says I completed 72
^^^ All of this is on the same 'race lap'
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Quote ( Dan Reed @ August 29th 2018,17:28:43 ) why does Analysis then show 72 laps completed. A
this is the infamous anomaly:
The race engine computes times for every lap you've done: which was 72.
However, you were considerably slower than the leader in those 72 laps compared to the leader, so you were actually X laps down, which is only shown in the summary.
I really does get mind-boggling every now and then, i agree. Frustrating too, if you're on the edge of 90% :P
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Quote ( Dan Reed @ August 29th 2018,17:28:43 ) If there is a penalty for being slow why is this not mentioned in the rules? according to the data I completed more than 90%. There is no mention (that I know of) in the rules that says we will be penalised for 'being too slow'.
This is sort of what the rule is about though. Try reaching the finish of a race, but getting lapped 10 times. You will have covered the full distance, you will get race analysis data for all the laps, but you won't be classified and you will receive half of the prize money.
The rule is there to prevent people getting full cash without having to make any expenses, and reaching the finish at a very slow pace needs to be penalized somehow.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ March 30th 2018,23:27:40 ) This basically equals the laps you didn't cover based on race analysis + the laps you were behind at the moment of retirement.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,17:22:24 ) GPRO race lasts to the final lap for everyone. Thus, it needs to be better to finish 6 laps (worth of time) behind than retire 6 laps from finish while being 6 laps (worth of time) behind. Thus the latter is counted as 12 laps behind.
I think I misunderstood your first quote.
What you've described is how I thought it should be, but doesn't appear to work with what people are suggesting has happened? Maybe the 90% rule is meant to remain a mystery :)
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There at least two kinds of laps behind, so it really isn't too easy, especially with the new viewer.
1) Laps behind shown in the new race screen. This is kind of real life esque laps behind, but basically means nothing in gpro. It's usually approximately the same as 2) though, as long as you are in the race.
2) Laps behind shown in the old race screen. After you and the leader have completed the lap X (regardless of how much time you are behind, it happens in the same simulation turn in the race engine), if you are 5 laps worth of time slower than leader, you are 5 laps behind. Then if you retire, you are dropped 1 lap more behind on every lap you didn't cover.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,17:22:24 ) GPRO race lasts to the final lap for everyone. Thus, it needs to be better to finish 6 laps (worth of time) behind than retire 6 laps from finish while being 6 laps (worth of time) behind. Thus the latter is counted as 12 laps behind.
But is this fair and needed? If you completed 90% of the race distance before the race is finished you've covered 90% of the race distance during the race. Period.
To add an additional penalty of laps you were behind the leader seems - harsh.
If this is indeed intended the rules should be clarified and state that you have to complete 90% of the race distance before the leader completes the race AND - in case you drop out of the race - the number of laps you were behind the leader at the time you dropped out will be deducted from the laps you actually completed.
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#638 posted Aug 29th 2018, 17:50:14 (last edited Aug 29th 2018, 17:52:26 by Dan Reed)
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,17:45:41 ) Then if you retire, you are dropped 1 lap more behind on every lap you didn't cover.
So for every lap the leader completes once you've retired, your lap count is reduced by 1?
So in my case I completed 72 laps then I retire, the leader completes 4 more laps and that puts me to 68 laps?
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,17:45:41 ) 2) Laps behind shown in the old race screen. After you and the leader have completed the lap X (regardless of how much time you are behind, it happens in the same simulation turn in the race engine), if you are 5 laps worth of time slower than leader, you are 5 laps behind. Then if you retire, you are dropped 1 lap more behind on every lap you didn't cover.
Doesn't that mean that you basically have to cover 95% of the race distance before you can (safely) drop out? Imagine you are on lap 74 of a 79 lap race and you have NOT been lapped (you're less than one lap worth of time behind).
You drop out and for each of the remaining laps you drop one more lap, meaning the race summary shows you 9 laps behind (70 laps). Wait - it probably won't calculate it that way, since it will start with 0 laps behind and add for the remaining laps a 1 lap penalty.
Still confusing...
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I think I got it how the system works but than the rules should say something like that:
You have to cover 90% of the race distance before the leader finishes the race. If you drop out during the race the laps you were behind the leader plus the laps you didn't complete are summed together in order to determine whether you made the 90% rule.
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Quote ( Joachim Rang @ August 29th 2018,17:57:13 ) You have to cover 90% of the race distance before the leader finishes the race. If you drop out during the race the laps you were behind the leader plus the laps you didn't complete are summed together in order to determine whether you made the 90% rule.
It's not that simple. Let's just focus to the case you don't retire. Let's say it's a 60 lap race and leader completes every lap in a minute. In that simple case, your laps behind is based on your total time as follows:
60-61 minutes: 0 laps
61-62 minutes: 1 laps
62-63 minutes: 2 laps
So as you can see, you need to finish in 67 minutes to make it. But where you are at 60 minutes doesn't really matter. You can be 4 laps behind, but due to double pit or something you average last 4 laps in 1:46 and thus finish in 67 minutes and 4 seconds and not make it.
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Actually in Indy Oval you can go backwards in laps. When there wasn't the 10 litre limit in pits, you were able to pit every lap and finish with negative laps. I don't remember whether Vlad changed those to 0, but some time ago there were still negative lap amounts in the first Indy Oval race.
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If the 90% rule is based on time rather than distance, doesn't this mean that 90% is absolutely dependent on the time it takes the winner to complete the race?
If that is the case then the 90% rule is different for every single group, no?
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#644 posted Aug 29th 2018, 18:12:32 (last edited Aug 29th 2018, 18:12:49 by Dan Reed)
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If it is time based then how are people who drop out calculated? since they have no completion time
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Quote ( Richard Hylands @ August 29th 2018,18:11:41 ) If the 90% rule is based on time rather than distance, doesn't this mean that 90% is absolutely dependent on the time it takes the winner to complete the race?
If that is the case then the 90% rule is different for every single group, no?
Well, it would be in the normal case too. If F1 and GP2 (or is it F2) raced the same length, in F1 you would need to be faster to complete 90% of laps than in GP2.
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Quote ( Dan Reed @ August 29th 2018,18:12:32 ) If it is time based then how are people who drop out calculated? since they have no completion time
For classification, they get 2x leader's lap time (if he is not in pits) (so everyone has a full race time for classification).
For laps behind I'm not quite sure. It probably is that you have laps behind from the last lap you complete, and then +1 for every lap you don't complete.
If you retire from lead, it can lead to anomalies like /gb/RaceSummary.asp?group=Rookie%20-%2066&Season=66&Race=3
EDIT: Actually Teixeira completed only 126 laps in that race, but because he was so far in the lead that no one caught him in 1 lap, he seems to be counted as 127 laps. Maybe I should get my ass up and finish the new engine.
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So it's actually not a distance rule but a time rule. Than it should be stated as such:
You have to finish the race within 112% (?) of the race winner time in order to be classified.
In case you drop out during the race, the time you were behind the leader and the remaining time of the race are added together to determine your final race time.
Oh boy - better not to "clarify" the rule. ;-)
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Quote ( Joachim Rang @ August 29th 2018,18:22:21 ) 112% (?)
100% + (round_up(0.1*laps)+1)/laps * 100%
I think there is a reason why it isn't stated that way either.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,18:17:10 ) Maybe I should get my ass up and finish the new engine.
What a conclusion. :D
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,18:17:10 ) For classification, they get 2x leader's time (if he is not in pits) (so everyone has a full race time for classification).
For laps behind I'm not quite sure. It probably is that you have laps behind from the last lap you complete, and then +1 for every lap you don't complete.
Now I can understand the calculation behind it.
Can I ask, why use 2x leaders lap time? Could you not use an average of your own lap time to produce a more accurate result?
Also does this mean that it's counting almost double the laps behind, considering I am already 4 laps behind the leader then for every lap I don't complete I am getting 2x the leaders lap added. If my laptimes averaged even 10 seconds a lap slower than the leader then this seems a pretty heavy penalty for someone who's already out of the race.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ August 29th 2018,18:14:07 ) Well, it would be in the normal case too. If F1 and GP2 (or is it F2) raced the same length, in F1 you would need to be faster to complete 90% of laps than in GP2.
This is technically true, Jukka, except that we have multiple groups at each level. There are 186 different race times in Rookie alone so the 90% rule is impossible to figure out prior to the race.
I'm not sure if anyone strategizes to complete only 90% but would it not be much simpler to have 90% of 100 laps is 90 laps rather than 90% of your group winners race time?
My favourite part of GPRO is that I can't figure out one single aspect of it despite accumulating data twice a week!
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I would make the rule a lot simpler by just requiring that you must have 90% of the race distance completed once the leader finishes the race.
If you are too slow - you are not classified.
If you drop out before you've completed 90% of the race distance - you are not classified.
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Quote ( Joachim Rang @ August 29th 2018,18:41:29 ) I would make the rule a lot simpler by just requiring that you must have 90% of the race distance completed once the leader finishes the race.
If you are too slow - you are not classified.
If you drop out before you've completed 90% of the race distance - you are not classified.
You are right that this would be a better rule, but the current race engine doesn't work like this. It calculates everyone's lap at the same time (i.e. everyone's lap 54, then everyone's lap 55 etc.). In a 60 lap race, the race engine doesn't know whether you've completed 54 laps quick enough, because it doesn't know yet how quick the race winner is going to be at the finish!
This is why Jukka made his comment "maybe I just finish the new race engine". If you simulate the race in a time-based manner instead of lap-by-lap, it will be easy to implement the simpler rule that you proposed.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ August 29th 2018,19:04:31 ) Quote ( Joachim Rang @ August 29th 2018,18:41:29 )
I would make the rule a lot simpler by just requiring that you must have 90% of the race distance completed once the leader finishes the race.
If you are too slow - you are not classified.
If you drop out before you've completed 90% of the race distance - you are not classified.
You are right that this would be a better rule, but the current race engine doesn't work like this. It calculates everyone's lap at the same time (i.e. everyone's lap 54, then everyone's lap 55 etc.). In a 60 lap race, the race engine doesn't know whether you've completed 54 laps quick enough, because it doesn't know yet how quick the race winner is going to be at the finish!
This is why Jukka made his comment "maybe I just finish the new race engine". If you simulate the race in a time-based manner instead of lap-by-lap, it will be easy to implement the simpler rule that you proposed.
I see.
Good things come to those who wait I guess? ;-)
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Last race I do not dropped out but only got 50% race earnings!! What is going on??
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You didn’t drop out, but you did not complete 90 % race distance
The rule applies even if you don’t drop out
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Quote ( Jônatas Paiva @ September 11th 2018,23:26:54 ) Last race I do not dropped out but only got 50% race earnings!! What is going on??
You did 63 laps out of 75 = 84%
/gb/RaceSummary.asp?group=Pro+-+14&Season=66&Race=10
/gb/GPRORules.asp#53-race-income
90% race distance rule: If you don't cover 90% of the race distance (as determined in the race summary) you will receive only 50% of the race income according to the table above.
Note that the 90% race distance is calculated on the total number of laps for a race and then rounded down to a whole lap number. If the race is for instance 55 laps long, the cut off point is calculated as follows: 55*0.9 = 49.5 ~ 49 laps, meaning that you need to complete 49 laps in this race to be inside the 90% distance rule.
Example: If you finished in 40th position in Elite and didn't cover 90% of the race distance you will get only $5.500.000 for your race position. This rule does not apply to Rookie groups.
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I have been technical problems two times and it shows my position 14 or 15th.. Better is show DNF or other status in driving investments.
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Don’t think that’s possible really (or better) given that race position is linked to race money and DNF or not reaching 90% distance means only 50% race income. Most people I’m sure prefer to keep smoking in order to try to reach 90% distance than retire and get only half...so it wouldn’t be a worthwhile change.
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That´s possible. Some drivers are good but they slow down in round if the machine breaks down. Blue flags are important and the track officials have to use would them more.
It´s recommended if smokers are trying to stop the fast trackers.
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