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Topic: 90% rule (again) |
704 replies
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Quote ( Antonio Guzzo @ July 7th 2018,00:54:51 ) If 90% of 60 = 54, why did not I get the full prize in Race 09 (Silverstone)?
It has to be 90% according to the leader. When he finished the race, you were at lap 52, according to the race summary: /RaceSummary.asp?group=Amateur+-+90&Season=65&Race=9
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So explained, I understand.
But it's still a mistake.
The race should be terminated when the leader receives the flag.
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Seems to me the lap shown in the old viewer and in analysis is the lap the leader is at when the event happens so you have to deduct how many laps behind you are as well from the "cyrrent lap" shown.
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Quote ( Antonio Guzzo @ July 7th 2018,01:21:39 ) The race should be terminated when the leader receives the flag.
If this was done then any data that you collect for fuel consumption and tyre wear would be compromised every time you finish a lap or more behind the leader.
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Hi.
Prompt why in the amauter group at some managers already at the beginning of a season pilots with OA higher than 110? how it in general is possible?
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OA limit is only for signing of contracts in ammy and above
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Quote ( Roman Alatyrtsev @ August 10th 2018,18:46:05 ) Hi.
Prompt why in the amauter group at some managers already at the beginning of a season pilots with OA higher than 110? how it in general is possible?
Peter has it spot on.
See section 3.1 of the rules.
Amateur does not have the resets that Rookie does to limit driver levels.
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Quote ( Graham Mercer @ July 7th 2018,02:49:48 ) If this was done then any data that you collect for fuel consumption and tyre wear would be compromised every time you finish a lap or more behind the leader.
Yes but it seems normal no ?
Like i can see on my last race, we are all at 1 lap ore more behind the leader, in race screen, i finish 5th, and be overtaked in lap 74 and finish 6th ???
This system apply not only for the 90% rule but also in normally conditions...
If the 3rd of this race overtake in the 74th lap, what happens ?
We see in live screen the 3rd position and in the race summary the 2nd ???
It's not logic at once to get financial penalty for 90% rule and penalised in wear for entire race...
For me, wear and fuel consumption have to be calculated over the 73 covereds laps and not over the 74, and/or the final position have to be fixed after leader last lap.
It can "corrupt" data if you see this but be more logic !
When you go out of the race at lap 10, your fuel and wear are corrupted ?
One season, i knew that i'll finish 2 laps behind and prepared a strategy with low fuel to be more accurate than my opponents...
But i pit after the race end and loose a lot of positions...
Mouaaaaaa :)
PS: i'm not complain, i've a tech prob on this race, 5 or 6th for me is a good position ^^
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Seb, usually when you plan your race (tyre and fuel management), you have to plan about yourself only.
Since the data is kinda "static" (that means other managers can't influence about it), you have to plan it like if you were the only one racing. Probably because calculating if a leader lapped you or something makes it harder to calculate about the other drivers, and also because it makes strategy way more complicated than it should be at the moment.
Not sure if that corrupts data, but my guess is that everything follows the "same" logic: the more laps you do in the race, the more accurate is your data. And accurate data is what everyone is searching, right? :p
About the 90% rule, I wonder if Jukka can implement a system in the race screen that can split the live standings: first part for managers who are in the 90% rule, second one for those who aren't. But that's just a suggestion.
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Quote ( Sébastien Boulanger @ August 29th 2018,09:49:51 ) Like i can see on my last race, we are all at 1 lap ore more behind the leader, in race screen, i finish 5th, and be overtaked in lap 74 and finish 6th ???
You didn't finish 5th; you were in 5th place when you crossed the finish line after the leader had won the race, but because you had been lapped, this was only your 73rd lap.
On your 74th lap, you were overtaken; therefore you finished 6th.
The critical thing you need to remember here is that the race doesn't finish when the leader finishes. You have to finish all of your laps (the old race viewer was better from this perspective, as it put everybody in the position they are/were in when they finished the particular lap).
The one thing which might need clarification, however, is how the 90% is calculated. Of course, everybody who finishes the race completes 100% race distance. Does the 90% mean that, when the winner takes the chequered flag, everyone who has covered 90% race distance by that point gets full money?
Or is it actually done on time? In which case, is it (effectively) you get full money if your race time is within 111.11% of the race winners time (therefore the winners time is >90% of your time)?
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Quote ( Mark Pinnick @ August 29th 2018,12:29:29 ) Does the 90% mean that, when the winner takes the chequered flag, everyone who has covered 90% race distance by that point gets full money?
Or is it actually done on time? In which case, is it (effectively) you get full money if your race time is within 111.11% of the race winners time (therefore the winners time is >90% of your time)?
None of the above.
It is specifically done with the number of laps (notice the little blue flag with a number) that you are behind the leader.
In fact in the last race 10% would be 7.4 laps so it is always rounded up to 8; so you have to finish 8 laps behind the leader to be out of the 90% rule. Thid is when your race finishes thus if you are 6 laps.behind when the leader crosses the line and you drop out 1 lap after you will be more than 6laps.behind and more than 8 when the race is finally over ( all cars cross the finish line)
For those wanting a mark if a running car is within the 90% rule maybe the little flag could change color or the number change color if you are out of the 90% rule
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Quote ( Eduardo Sanchez Carenzo @ August 29th 2018,13:25:22 ) Thid is when your race finishes thus if you are 6 laps.behind when the leader crosses the line and you drop out 1 lap after you will be more than 6laps.behind and more than 8 when the race is finally over ( all cars cross the finish line)
I don't get this bit. If I'm 6 laps back when the leader crosses the line, I've done 68 laps which is >90% so I should get full money, no?
Quote ( Eduardo Sanchez Carenzo @ August 29th 2018,13:25:22 ) For those wanting a mark if a running car is within the 90% rule maybe the little flag could change color or the number change color if you are out of the 90% rule
That is a REALLY good idea; I like it a lot.
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Quote ( Mark Pinnick @ August 29th 2018,14:34:27 ) I don't get this bit. If I'm 6 laps back when the leader crosses the line, I've done 68 laps which is >90% so I should get full money, no?
I agree, if the leader has done the full 74 when he finishes (obviously) and you're 6 laps down....you must have done 68 laps? Even if others lap you or you drop out you've still done 68 laps at the point the leader finishes?
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It is laps, it's just always rounded in your favour. 42*0.9=37.8, rounded down to 37.
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Imagine this case:
74 lap race you drop out in lap 70 when you are 6 laps behind.
In the old viewer all cars are in the same lap thus you will be shown dropping out in lap 70 and thus finishing 10 laps behind and out of the 90% rule.
In the new viewer yoi are on your own lap (reason why it stars to rain later for you) the leader crosses the line at lap 74 while you are still at lap 68, two laps later you drop out and hence finish 10 laps behind.
It has been discussed in this thread before so please take a look back a couple of pages, sorry I can't do that for you but I'm on the phone about to get busy
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Quote ( Eduardo Sanchez Carenzo @ August 29th 2018,16:11:10 )
In the old viewer all cars are in the same lap thus you will be shown dropping out in lap 70 and thus finishing 10 laps behind and out of the 90% rule.
In the new viewer yoi are on your own lap (reason why it stars to rain later for you) the leader crosses the line at lap 74 while you are still at lap 68, two laps later you drop out and hence finish 10 laps behind. That is really confusing... Maybe there is a similar explanation to this race? How is a guy finishing 127 laps ahead of guy finishing 128 (positions 12-13)?
/gb/RaceSummary.asp?group=Rookie%20-%2066&Season=66&Race=3
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Position is set by time.
Classification by laps completed.
Dropping out during the race leads to a time penalty, I think it's 2x the slowest lap time that lap.
So dropping out can see you ahead of people finishing the race but will still let you, by lap you dropped in, classify.
Something like that I think. Only the developer and writer of rules knows for sure.
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The simple description given earlier in the thread is that you are classified as completing the number of laps in the race less the number of laps you are behind the leader less the number of laps left when/if you drop out.
The Penalty element of this needs to made clearer in the Rules section as obviously it doesn't work without the penalty applied.
if you're five laps behind in a 60 lap race then when the leader finishes you're obviously going to be on lap 55.
However by what we're told in this thread, because you carry on racing until lap 60, if you drop out with two laps left you would actually be classified in the summary as only completing 53 laps.
The issue keeps being raised because the rules aren't clear and the actual mathematics don't work without the penalty.
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It doesn't fit with Jukkas explanation further up the thread or what some people have reported, that's the issue I think?
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He and others (David Jones Winkley) are referring to it in terms of time as far as i see, which - as far as i'm concerned - is exactly what the laps-down count in the old viewer is based on. So yeah, i do think it fits.
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#626 posted Aug 29th 2018, 17:09:49 (last edited Aug 29th 2018, 17:10:46 by Dan Reed)
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I had an issue with 90% in the last race of last season.
According to the race viewer and race analysis, I had completed 72 laps out of 79. (leader was on lap 76 when I dropped out)
But you look at race summary and I had only done 68
I received 50% payout
I think what happened is the race summary took the 72 laps I had done and subracted the laps I was behind (4) making it 68 laps.
The issue is that the 72 laps in the race screen had already taken the laps behind into account.
I have a suspicion that the laps behind are added twice meaning summary thinks I was 8 laps behind and not 4. and I think the 90% rule is calculated from the summary.
I don't know if any of this is actually the case but it makes more sense than any explanation given so far :)
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Quote ( Dan Reed @ August 29th 2018,17:09:49 ) I had an issue with 90% in the last race of last season.
According to the race viewer and race analysis, I had completed 72 laps out of 79. (leader was on lap 76 when I dropped out)
But you look at race summary and I had only done 68
I received 50% payout
I think what happened is the race summary took the 72 laps I had done and subracted the laps I was behind (4) making it 68 laps.
The issue is that the 72 laps in the race screen had already taken the laps behind into account.
I have a suspicion that the laps behind are added twice meaning summary thinks I was 8 laps behind and not 4. and I think the 90% rule is calculated from the summary.
I don't know if any of this is actually the case but it makes more sense than any explanation given so far :)
You might be onto something. You drop out before the race finishes. The system looks how many laps you've completed and then substracts the number of laps you're behind the leader. What it should do is take the lap the leader is in and then substract the number of laps you're behind.
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Quote ( Dan Reed @ August 29th 2018,17:09:49 ) I think what happened is the race summary took the 72 laps I had done and subracted the laps I was behind (4) making it 68 laps.
Yes, this is the way you have to look at it. Your car completed a distance of 72 laps but you get a 'penalty' because you were very slow.
In the old race viewer, you will see your car still in the race in lap 72, but it will say "+4 laps". And you will see it out of the race in lap 73. So your distance covered in the race summary is 72-4=68.
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Quote ( Dan Reed @ August 29th 2018,17:09:49 ) I had an issue with 90% in the last race of last season.
According to the race viewer and race analysis, I had completed 72 laps out of 79. (leader was on lap 76 when I dropped out)
But you look at race summary and I had only done 68
I received 50% payout
I think what happened is the race summary took the 72 laps I had done and subracted the laps I was behind (4) making it 68 laps.
The issue is that the 72 laps in the race screen had already taken the laps behind into account.
I have a suspicion that the laps behind are added twice meaning summary thinks I was 8 laps behind and not 4. and I think the 90% rule is calculated from the summary.
I don't know if any of this is actually the case but it makes more sense than any explanation given so far :)
That fits with Jukka explanation above but not what is given in the Rules or Wiki.
You were four laps down so were on lap 72 but also lose the laps the leader had left in race at the time, so another four. The wording of the wiki only takes account of the laps you were behind.
There may be an issue of times there too as in a given time you'll obviously do less laps than the leader but you'd need to be lapping at half the leaders speed for your example to work in a time based scenario without penalties for dropping out.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ August 29th 2018,17:19:58 ) In the old race viewer, you will see your car still in the race in lap 72, but it will say "+4 laps". And you will see it out of the race in lap 73. So your distance covered in the race summary is 72-4=68.
I think Dan was saying that the race was on Lap 76 but he knew he was on 72 as he had subtracted the 4 laps?
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GPRO race lasts to the final lap for everyone. Thus, it needs to be better to finish 6 laps (worth of time) behind than retire 6 laps from finish while being 6 laps (worth of time) behind. Thus the latter is counted as 12 laps behind.
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