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Jonathan Beagles
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Old post #2880 posted May 26th 2012, 19:30:59 Quote 
Awesome, points :) Data analysis ftw :D
Stefan Gommans
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Old post #2881 posted May 27th 2012, 02:34:47 Quote 
After S6 R10 (40 Races)
32 x Points - 80% Chance for Points
18 x Podium - 45% Chance for a Podium
5 x Win - 12,5% Chance for a Win
2 x Champ - 50% Chance to win the Championship

Srry have to post this :P
Arald Sopoti
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Old post #2882 posted May 27th 2012, 07:33:54 Quote 
Quote ( Stefan Gommans @ May 27th 2012,02:34:47 )

After S6 R10 (40 Races)
32 x Points - 80% Chance for Points
18 x Podium - 45% Chance for a Podium
5 x Win - 12,5% Chance for a Win
2 x Champ - 50% Chance to win the Championship
and 20% chance of failing/start crashing/forgetting :P
Wopke Hoekstra
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Old post #2883 posted May 27th 2012, 08:29:42 Quote 
I had hoped there would be less people with massive fuel blocking me ;(
Teoh Hao Yang
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Old post #2884 posted May 27th 2012, 10:22:43 Quote 
##unjoin

till S32
Luke Frost
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Old post #2885 posted May 27th 2012, 10:44:55 (last edited May 27th 2012, 10:45:16 by Luke Frost) Quote 
Quote ( Stefan Gommans @ May 27th 2012,02:34:47 )

Srry have to post this :P


Now I see why you were nominated for 'worst' forum user. Many sore loser kids here :)
(in response to 3 thumbs down)
Ivelin Dobrev
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Old post #2886 posted May 27th 2012, 10:45:53 Quote 
Quote ( Christoph Seifriedsberger @ May 26th 2012,18:11:49 )

I don't take a silly game that serious but when I see others apparently do and do things which I view as against the spirit of any game, there is no need for me to continue playing.
OK, maybe it wasn't a good thing to do, but hey, at least I said it all loud and even warned you all that there will be blocking. I could have not comment at all here, and you would have never suspected me probably..just had to say that I was lucky at the end. I wanted that 2nd place (yeah, I know it's just a silly game) and I found a way to get it. And even then, I was lucky that Davi was underfueled. And also, even we haven't spoke with Mike and Richard, the result would have been the same, I would have finished most probably high enough to get the 2nd place..

Hope you don't leave the game just because of this. I like your competition in this game and I hope it will continue.

Maybe there should be rules about alliances, I don't know how it could be controlled though. Once again, I can say that I wasn't the first to do that, Davi himself asked for my help last season and I did all I could by blocking others.

Hate me if you want (speaking to everybody), I didn't play against the rules. I understand that it wasn't the correct thing to do, but, with the risk of repeating myself, after a long discussion with Stefan, that's the only way that we found to get that 2nd place.
Matthew Standen
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Old post #2887 posted May 27th 2012, 11:27:17 Quote 
There's nothing wrong at all with someone using blocking to help out their team mate. In fact, I think that is an important part of the game. and adds to the strategy element - being able to sacrifice your own race to help your team mate.

I hadn't realised there was another team involved here though. I completely agree with Christoph, that any kind of collusion, data sharing or strategy manipulation between teams is against the spirit of the game.

Saying it's not against the rules is not a valid point in my opinion. Even if there was a rule in place, it would still be impossible fo Lukas to enforce that rule, and would rely on the integrity of the players to play in a fair way - that didn't happen here and is very disappointing.
Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2888 posted May 27th 2012, 12:04:35 Quote 
I never liked any collaboration between teams, but as Matthew said, there's nothing I can do to find any connections or do anything about them. Will be really sad to see you go Christoph, I considered you one of the best players to ever play the game and a very nice person outside this game (good times in M-1 :P). Hope you don't leave though.

Interesting to see some controversy in the last race of the season though.

Standings will come soon.
Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2889 posted May 27th 2012, 12:45:17 (last edited May 27th 2012, 12:46:55 by Lukas Giniotis) Quote 
Final Standings



Stefan Gommans end the season with 5th podium in a row and beat the second place by scoring double the points. Ivelin Dobrev managed to get 2nd, but not without controversy which was sound after the race, however, words can't change anything now. Rafael Mantovani just climbed into top 5 with a podium in last race kicking out Christoph Seifriedsberger out of there and Simon Lyus jumped into 7th. Lower back Pedro Diogo jumped 4 places with his best career finish, Chris Anello overtook Davi Jardim Tellini despite his point finish and Jonathan Beagles scored his first points overtaking Platon Krasin. There were 9 people who didn't score any points.

Cup



It was almost clear that Stefan has taken another trophy even before the race, but the fight between him and Rafael Mantovani went on till last lap, where the Dutchman just managed to hold Brazilian behind.

One Big Race



Biggest position win was +2 which was achieved by Simon Lyus, Mairo Toom and Stuart Foster. Biggest loss was -4 by Martynas Brazenas.

Final Team Standings



What an unfortunate race for Porsche who dropped from 3rd to 5th despite scoring 3 points, because Copersucar scored 6 and Ferrari took 5. Another team that has benefited from last race is Shadow who jumped from 11th to 8th pushing Maserati out of top 10. Double top 10 finish from Mclaren allowed them to push Aston Butterworth to the last place.

Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2890 posted May 27th 2012, 13:05:26 (last edited May 27th 2012, 13:05:52 by Lukas Giniotis) Quote 
Season 6 awards:

Manager of the season:

Nominations: S.Gommans /A.Sopoti/R.Mantovani

Winner is..... Stefan Gommans . No competition here, won the title by 33 points (more than 2nd place driver have scored), took team title to HWM , won cup competition himself and with the team and was faster than anyone else by almost 1 and a half minutes in one big race. Really a stunning season for him.

Surprise of the season*:

Nominations: A.Sopoti/R.Mantovani/R.Luijendijk

Winner is..... Arald Sopoti . Who on earth could have thought that a manager who only have scored 5 points will tie on the most wins scored with the leaders? It wasn't luck, but skill, as he had chances to score way more if not for last lap pits.

Underachievement of the season*:

Nominations: M.Standen /D.Viktor /J.Wood

Winner is..... Joseph Wood . 9th place last season with 18 points scored and no points in this one. His best finish was 12th and he had missed 3 races. Let's hope he'll come back stronger next season.

Rookie of the season:

Nominations: S.Foster/M.Baston/A.Ciuchi

Winner is..... Andrei Ciuchi. Despite being placed last of the nominees, he raced in less races than either of his competitors and scored in 3 out of his 4 first races. He couldn't achieve top 12 only once and that was because of data gathering. A player to look out next season, especially when he has such an experienced teammate.

Team of the season:

Nominations: HWM/Alfa Romeo /Copersucar

Winner is..... HWM. Another easy decision. The team won everything possible and finished in 1-2 positions in the season.

Improvement throughout the season:

Nominations: I. Dobrev /J.Beagles/M.Baston

Winner is..... Ivelin Dobrev . Only 10 points in first 7 races had him worried, but last three brought him 22 with three podiums and it gave him the 2nd place in the standings. Still, he was heavily beaten by his teammate and that shouldn't make him too cheerful.

* - Rookies can't win this one.
Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2891 posted May 27th 2012, 13:10:41 (last edited May 27th 2012, 13:11:16 by Lukas Giniotis) Quote 
Strategist Statistics

Most Wins

Rank Name Wins
1 I.Dobrev 10
2 M.Kubski 9
3 S.Lyus 7
4 C.Seifriedsberger 6
5 C.Anello 5
5 S.Gommans 5
7 M.Standen 4

8 S.Mohamed 3
8 D.Bassett 3
8 J.Vaananen 3
8 R.Mantovani 3
12 C.Alex 2
12 D.Freitas 2
12 D.Karda 2
12 D.Viktor 2
12 A.Sopoti 2

17 J.Ho 1
17 S.Munro 1
17 J.Wood 1
17 A.Gokhale 1
17 P.Alan 1
17 M.Toom 1
17 G.Harding 1
17 N.Neil 1

Most Wins in a row

Rank Name Wins in a row
1 M.Kubski 6
2 R.Mantovani 2
2 C.Alex 2
2 I.Dobrev 2
2 S.Mohamed 2
2 S.Lyus 2
2 M.Standen 2
2 S.Gommans 2

9 A.Gokhale 1
9 J.Ho 1
9 D.Karda 1
9 J.Vaananen 1
9 D.Bassett 1
9 S.Munro 1
9 J.Wood 1
9 C.Seifriedsberger 1
9 D.Freitas 1

9 P.Alan 1
9 M.Toom 1
9 C.Anello 1
9 D.Viktor 1
9 G.Harding 1
9 A.Sopoti 1

9 N.Neil 1

BOLD - Currently Racing
Joseph Wood
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Old post #2892 posted May 27th 2012, 13:12:57 Quote 
Hey, I won an award!! :D
Luke Frost
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Old post #2893 posted May 27th 2012, 13:14:12 Quote 
Who wants to team with me next season :)
Joseph Wood
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Old post #2894 posted May 27th 2012, 13:16:34 Quote 
How about an award winner? :P
Luke Frost
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Old post #2895 posted May 27th 2012, 13:19:30 Quote 
For underachieving?!
Pass :D
Andrei Ciuchi
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Old post #2896 posted May 27th 2012, 13:20:48 Quote 
Rookie of the season ... *beams* :)
Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2897 posted May 27th 2012, 13:21:01 Quote 
Strategist Statistics

Most Podiums

Rank Name Podiums
1 I.Dobrev 27
2 S.Gommans 18
3 C.Siefriedsberger 17
4 S.Lyus 15

5 M.Kubski 13
6 D.Bassett 11
7 M.Standen 9
8 R.Mantovani 8
8 D.Freitas 8

10 S.Mohamed 7
10 D.Viktor 7
12 J.Vaananen 6
12 C.Alex 6
12 G.Pukk 6
12 J.Wood 6
16 D.Ganguly 5
16 S.Forth 5
16 C.Anello 5
19 S.Munro 4
19 M.Toom 4
19 D.Karda 4
19 A.Khanna 4

23 A.Ndrecka 3
23 J.Ho 3
25 B.Simina 2
25 P.Alan 2
25 M.Fauzan 2
25 G.Harding 2
25 M.Brazenas 2
25 R.Luijendijk 2
25 A.Sopoti 2

32 A.Gokhale 1
32 J.Kingsley 1
32 M.Katsoulas 1
32 A.Littlewood 1
32 S.Foster 1
32 N.Neil 1


Most Podiums in a row

Rank Name Podiums in a row
1 I.Dobrev 6
1 M.Kubski 6
3 S.Lyus 5
3 M.Standen 5
3 S.Gommans 5
6 R.Mantovani 4

6 C.Alex 4
6 S.Mohamed 4
6 C.Siefriedsberger 4
10 D.Bassett 3
10 D.Ganguly 3
10 S.Munro 3
10 J.Wood 3
14 J.Vaananen 2
14 S.Forth 2
14 D.Freitas 2
14 D.Viktor 2

18 J.Ho 1
18 B.Simina 1
18 D.Karda 1
18 A.Khanna 1

18 A.Ndrecka 1
18 G.Pukk 1
18 A.Gokhale 1
18 P.Alan 1
18 M.Fauzan 1
18 J.Kingsley 1
18 M.Katsoulas 1
18 G.Harding 1
18 M.Toom 1
18 C.Anello 1
18 A.Littlewood 1
18 R.Luijendijk 1
18 S.Foster 1
18 M.Brazenas 1

18 N.Neil 1
18 A.Sopoti 1

BOLD - Currently Racing
Underlined - Current Streak
Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2898 posted May 27th 2012, 13:37:31 Quote 
Rank Name Points

Most Points Scored

1 I.Dobrev 265
2 S.Lyus 228
3 C.Siefriedsberger 195
4 S.Gommans 191
5 M.Kubski 131
6 D.Bassett 122
7 D.Freitas 106
8 M.Standen 101
9 D.Karda 100
10 A.Khanna 93
11 R.Mantovani 87
12 G.Pukk 84
13 S.Forth 82
14 C.Anello 77
15 D.Viktor 74
16 S.Mohamed 72
17 C.Alex 62
18 J.Vaananen 61
19 M.Toom 56
20 J.Wood 51
21 J.Ho 45
21 A.Ndrecka 45
23 S.Munro 43
24 D.Ganguly 42
25 A.Gokhale 39
26 B.Simina 34
26 R.Luijendijk 34
28 P.Alan 32
29 A.Sopoti 31
30 A.Littlewood 24
31 M.Fauzan 22
31 G.Harding 22
33 N.Neil 15
34 M.Brazenas 14
35 M.Baston 13
36 J.Kingsley 12
36 S.Foster 12
38 A.Petrov 10
38 W.Hoekstra 10
38 A.Ciuchi 10
41 M.Katsoulas 9
42 P.Diogo 8
43 D.J.Tellini 6
44 J.Wilson 3
45 C.Morales 2
45 P.Krasin 2
45 J.Beagles 2
48 S.De 1

Most Races

Rank Name Races
1 D.Karda 59
2 S.Lyus 58
3 I.Dobrev 57
4 C.Siefriedsberger 45
5 M.Toom 40
5 M.Standen 40
5 A.Khanna 40
5 D.Freitas 40
5 S.Gommans 40
10 D.Viktor 33
11 G.Pukk 31
11 C.Anello 31
13 G.Harding 29
14 J.Wood 27
15 S.Forth 25
16 W.Hoekstra 23
17 J.Ho 20
17 A.Littlewood 20
17 R.Luijendijk 20
17 R.Mantovani 20
21 D.Bassett 19
22 M.Kubski 18
22 S.De 18
22 A.Sopoti 18
25 P.Krasin 14
26 M.Fauzan 13
26 P.Alan 13
28 A.Ndrecka 12
29 A.Gokhale 10
29 J.Wilson 10
29 D.J.Tellini 10
29 P.Diogo 10
29 N.Neil 10
34 D.Ganguly 9
34 S.Mohamed 9
34 J.Vaananen 9
34 B.Simina 9
34 C.Alex 9
34 M.Baston 9
40 S.Munro 8
41 J.Kingsley 8
41 A.Petrov 8
41 M.Katsoulas 8
41 C.Morales 8
41 A.Johnson 8
41 J.Beagles 8
41 S.Foster 8
41 M.Brazenas 8
49 M.Krasin 7
50 A.Ciuchi 6
51 J.Anderson 5
51 T.Hao Yang 5
53 I.Petersons 4
54 Y.Desai 2
55 C.Wei Loon 1
55 N.Sabbagh 1
Lukas Giniotis
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Old post #2899 posted May 27th 2012, 13:40:20 (last edited May 27th 2012, 13:40:44 by Lukas Giniotis) Quote 
HALL OF FAME

					
Rank Name Wins Podiums Points Races
1 S.Gommans 5 18 191 40
2 I.Dobrev 10 27 265 57
3 M.Standen 4 9 101 40
4 M.Kubski 4 7 67 10
5 D.Viktor 2 7 74 33
6 S.Lyus 7 15 228 58
7 C.Seifrieds.. 6 17 195 45
8 C.Anello 5 5 77 31
9 D.Bassett 3 11 122 19
10 R.Mantovani 3 8 87 20

Mairo Toom
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Old post #2900 posted May 27th 2012, 13:45:15 Quote 
Thanks for a great season Lukas !
Now waiting for next one :)
(And analysis also :P)
Arald Sopoti
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Old post #2901 posted May 27th 2012, 13:46:45 Quote 
thank you for the surprise of the season award :D
Josh Anderson
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Old post #2902 posted May 27th 2012, 15:07:29 Quote 
Wahey! I'm 51st in the Most Races category!

But that's about it. Hopefully I can get in a good team next time, with a good teammate.
Christoph Seifriedsberger
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Old post #2903 posted May 27th 2012, 17:56:41 (last edited May 27th 2012, 18:00:11 by Christoph Seifriedsberger) Quote 
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

OK, maybe it wasn't a good thing to do, but hey, at least I said it all loud and even warned you all that there will be blocking.


Yeah, you "warned" us after the deadline so there was nothing we could have done about it...

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

I could have not comment at all here, and you would have never suspected me probably


Maybe we wouldn't have suspected you, but that's not even the point. Because it was clear that some peoples strategy was only to block others and not for their own good and this I consider against the spirit of the game.

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

I wanted that 2nd place (yeah, I know it's just a silly game) and I found a way to get it.


And this way is called cheating. IMO that's worth nothing now.

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

I was lucky that Davi was underfueled. And also, even we haven't spoke with Mike and Richard, the result would have been the same, I would have finished most probably high enough to get the 2nd place..


So why cheat in the first place then? And did you consider that it's not only about you and your 2nd place? I congratulated the REAL winner of last race which is Dragu.
Do you think it to be fair that he didn't even get a point when he would have actually won? And there are a lot others who got screwed by this cheating who would have got a podium or points...

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

Hope you don't leave the game just because of this. I like your competition in this game and I hope it will continue.


I like competition and some banter about it myself, but this isn't a fair competition anymore.

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

Maybe there should be rules about alliances, I don't know how it could be controlled though. Once again, I can say that I wasn't the first to do that, Davi himself asked for my help last season and I did all I could by blocking others.


Because you haven't been the first one doesn't make it any better and I was actually talking not only about you. At the end everyone involved didn't play it fair and there are also enough others who either share data or what's their strategy next race (WHO ARE NOT TEAM MATES) which is also an unfair advantage.

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,10:45:53 )

Hate me if you want (speaking to everybody), I didn't play against the rules. I understand that it wasn't the correct thing to do, but, with the risk of repeating myself, after a long discussion with Stefan, that's the only way that we found to get that 2nd place.


Firstly I don't hate anyone and secondly for me it's just a silly game anyway.

If you found this to be the only way to get that 2nd place, then you simply weren't good enough and don't deserve it anyway.

Quote ( Matthew Standen @ May 27th 2012,11:27:17 )

There's nothing wrong at all with someone using blocking to help out their team mate. In fact, I think that is an important part of the game. and adds to the strategy element - being able to sacrifice your own race to help your team mate.


This, although I'm not sure if using intermediates or rain tyres in a dry race to block others doesn't cross the border for me already.

Quote ( Matthew Standen @ May 27th 2012,11:27:17 )

I hadn't realised there was another team involved here though. I completely agree with Christoph, that any kind of collusion, data sharing or strategy manipulation between teams is against the spirit of the game.


Exactly and as I said it's not the first time something like this happened and there is data sharing between different teams and also some who know strategy from other teams.

Quote ( Matthew Standen @ May 27th 2012,11:27:17 )

Saying it's not against the rules is not a valid point in my opinion. Even if there was a rule in place, it would still be impossible fo Lukas to enforce that rule, and would rely on the integrity of the players to play in a fair way - that didn't happen here and is very disappointing.


Exactly and that's why I quit. I'm playing a silly game for fun and if I don't succeed so be it, but some just don't play it in a fair way.

Actually when I think back when Matt and me completely dominated, we had worked out everything exactly. For example we knew the fuel consumption even to 0.001 l/km exact.
But then I suggested a few changes to Lukas like the varying fuel consumption and tyre wear related to any track characteristic he chooses.
The reason for that was because of knowing everything completely exact made it almost impossible to beat us and it would take way longer until you figure everything out.

But exactly this is one point which gets undermined with the ongoing data sharing between teams and I think I don't have to say what an advantage it is in this game if you know the strategies of other teams and asking others to deliberately block is the worst thing of all.

Quote ( Lukas Giniotis @ May 27th 2012,12:04:35 )

Will be really sad to see you go Christoph, I considered you one of the best players to ever play the game and a very nice person outside this game (good times in M-1 :P).


Thanks Lukas but my decision is made. It's a great game though and I would have liked to win the title some day.

But if you ask me, you should change all the figures for fuel consumption and tyre wear again (it might not be fair to those who played fair, but IMO it's certainly better for the future of the game) and let an amnesty rule kick in (meaning that there won't be any punishment for those who didn't play fair).
And in the future everyone who knows people who share data or strategies with non team mates should be reported and punished. The same counts for those who asked others to deliberately block and those who are doing it obviously.
And I may suggest that an "overtaking rule" in case someone is on the wrong tyres (i.e. intermediates or rain tyres if it's completely dry).

Good luck with the game Lukas and I may return someday if people are playing it fair.
Noah Sabbagh
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Old post #2904 posted May 27th 2012, 18:03:26 Quote 
Quote ( Luke Frost @ May 27th 2012,13:14:12 )

Who wants to team with me next season :)


me
Chris Anello
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Old post #2905 posted May 27th 2012, 18:39:08 (last edited May 27th 2012, 18:40:31 by Chris Anello) Quote 
Quote ( Lukas Giniotis @ May 27th 2012,12:45:17 )

Another team that has benefited from last race is Shadow who jumped from 11th to 8th pushing Maserati out of top 10.

Wow =D
Quote ( Lukas Giniotis @ May 27th 2012,13:40:20 )

8 C.Anello 5 5 77 31

Still there. Hopefully next season I won't be 8th ;)

Season to forget, though. Awful results, but at least I collected some data to use in the next season, with better results, and at least a win (I miss that times =P)

HUGE thanks to Lukas for having run this great, epic season of GPRO Strategist =)
Ivelin Dobrev
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Old post #2906 posted May 27th 2012, 20:09:04 Quote 
Quote ( Christoph Seifriedsberger @ May 27th 2012,17:56:41 )

If you found this to be the only way to get that 2nd place, then you simply weren't good enough and don't deserve it anyway.
I'll answer only to this comment.

I really don't agree that I didn't deserve it. As I said, without Mike and Richard blocking, I might have got that 3rd place in the race anyway, which would have been enough for the 2nd place in the championship. I don't know why you are so certain that Dragu would have won the race, since you don't know what pace he would have. You couldn't know if there wouldn't be another person blocking at some point of the race. You simply can't say that Dragu would have won.

If Davi and Arald were both underfueled and I wasn't, did they deserved more the 2nd place than me? Don't think so. At the start of the season, I had bad races, it was because we were working on the FC, I always risked more and used less fuel than Stefan, and that's why I finished low and even got excluded from the Cup. The fact that I managed to be fighting for the 2nd place of the championship in the last race is a good enough reason to deserve the 2nd place.

My first reaction was to apologize about all that, but now, I don't care anymore. You said that it's just a silly game, so why getting so mad at the situation? Personally, if I was in your position, my reaction would have been completely different. I wouldn't have give up, I would have fought to come back and win. I believe that giving up like that is weak and the easy decision to make.

Good luck and I still hope you reconsider.

I expect to be blamed for any unexpected blocking next season, so I can tell you from now on, that I don't intend to get in touch with nobody but Stefan about the game as it simply makes the game not fun at all.
Christoph Seifriedsberger
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Old post #2907 posted May 27th 2012, 20:16:55 Quote 
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,20:09:04 )

I don't know why you are so certain that Dragu would have won the race, since you don't know what pace he would have. You couldn't know if there wouldn't be another person blocking at some point of the race. You simply can't say that Dragu would have won.


Just watch the race and you would know that he would have won. I would have finished 2nd and Andrei probably 3rd. I didn't look for more.

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,20:09:04 )

My first reaction was to apologize about all that, but now, I don't care anymore. You said that it's just a silly game, so why getting so mad at the situation?


Because I don't like if some people are cheating and I feel sorry for those who play fair and would have achieved more.

Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,20:09:04 )

I wouldn't have give up, I would have fought to come back and win. I believe that giving up like that is weak and the easy decision to make.


Look, I play silly games for fun and like some banter, but I play fair. And if there others who don't play fair, I don't see a reason why I should continue playing as it's taking out the fun for those who are playing fair.
Christoph Seifriedsberger
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Old post #2908 posted May 27th 2012, 20:39:23 Quote 
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ May 27th 2012,20:09:04 )

As I said, without Mike and Richard blocking, I might have got that 3rd place in the race anyway, which would have been enough for the 2nd place in the championship


btw. I just checked the final standings and without your cheating you wouldn't even be in the top 3...

But that's not even the main point and I thought I made it clear already. Those guys who are cheating taking out the fun for those who are playing fair and would have achieved more.
Rafael Mantovani
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Old post #2909 posted May 27th 2012, 21:02:00 Quote 
a polemic debate...
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