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Forum topic poll
Should Rookie reset be optional?
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Topic: Rookie division and reset |
61 replies
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soooooooo............. as I see the situation...............
still is April the 1st............
and I would say :
Chuck Norris will be NOT crying !!! He will win them all !!!!!!
EACH ONE !!!!!!!
muhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
keep on fighting and keep on smiling people This is the GAME !!!!
Enjoy new season !!!!!
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Quote ( Kirill Medvedev @ April 1st 2018,15:45:05 ) Well, I had to, if I wanted to keep my driver. And I had to jump out of my pants to do it, and came to Ama with near no cash. Managed to retain, but mostly because of the old ratio with only 4 relegations. And luck. And my genius XD
Not sure if the next season will be as lucky though.
This is what I personally hate most about the game: building up is not a normal tool, but a holy cow precious prize that must be fought for. There's plenty of ways to regulate "unfairness" other than total reset of half of players. But thats the design, and not many people think alike, it seems, so okay. No more whining :D
I don't say you're whining. I reckon you have good intentions with your suggestion however NOT resetting would be unfair to every new player. Besides that you don't loose much from 1 rookie season, most actually gain from it.... (certainly money wise). Except those choosing for a rookie reset.
The remainder is general.
This discussion pops up almost every season because of being 'unfair.' People want to compete with the more established... Sure they want to, but they are not capable off without reckongnizing it themselves.. In order to do so one must first learn the very basics:
- consistently set up a car within 10 from perfect (will get you out of rookie with almost any driver..)
- learn the influence of (at least some) of the drivers attributes
- Manage finances a bit
That is basically all that is required to get out of rookie. And with some effort (big hint: /gb/forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=15346&Page=1) and searching it really should be like a walk in the park...
There is plenty on information of the forums - hard to find sometimes but it IS there - and besides we all have a friend called Google. There's literally a ton of information out there if you want to find it... And that is a lot more that the more established players (like Mikko) had when they started... Now don't stick what with you find... and certainly not those tools (!)
So basically everyone new does have the ability to have a jumpstart IF they put some effort in it. No the game doesn't hand it to you on a silver plate. It never did, it never will. And FOBY is not a wall, but an opportunity.
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This whole poll/question should really only be answered by those players that stay in Rookie often or are there every other or third season after a short stint in Ama.
It does not in any way actually pertain to all those able to get to and stay in Ama and above consistently, especially those in Pro and up.
With the reduction of Ama groups, upping managers to 40 in them, more players will be bouncing back and forth between Ama and Rookie, making it likely over 50% total when looking over some seasons that are reset in Rookie.
Those people are really the only ones that should have a say or at least a voice in this kind of matter and I would like to see how the answers and poll would look if we limited it to those.
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 1st 2018,21:46:39 ) At the end of the day, it boils down to what's more rewarding/less frustrating for real newbies: full reset each season so that they aren't handicapped vs. people who were in the league before them but at the same time they won't advance either beyond driver preparation, or the OP suggestion that handicaps newbies but allows them to build and progress. If I was a full newbie, I think I'd choose the latter.
So, Splitting Rookie into A and B categories would be a good idea from your point of view Edwin?
Quote ( Jody Parker @ April 2nd 2018,00:48:25 ) This whole poll/question should really only be answered by those players that stay in Rookie often or are there every other or third season after a short stint in Ama.
It does not in any way actually pertain to all those able to get to and stay in Ama and above consistently, especially those in Pro and up.
With the reduction of Ama groups, upping managers to 40 in them, more players will be bouncing back and forth between Ama and Rookie, making it likely over 50% total when looking over some seasons that are reset in Rookie.
Those people are really the only ones that should have a say or at least a voice in this kind of matter and I would like to see how the answers and poll would look if we limited it to those.
Well...speaking for myself I didn't vote on the poll yet ;) I kinda disagree with the OP'er tho, and prefer it that the reset depends on certain abilities/achievement rather than "opt in/out". Hence splitting Rookie into A and B.
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I will just add one more thing.
Apart from I don´t see the big disadvantage that a new Rookie has over an "established" Rookie, or maybe I should say I don´t see what an established Rookie can build to be such a "monster" for new Rookies without promoting - and then he is gone.
But never mind.
My idea is not really a Rookie A and Rookie B
Maybe a Rookie A for one Season max as Tutorial but after that everybody in the same as now.
Only reset should be optional in my opinion.
And if I am delusional about my capabilities, then so be it. I like to learn the hard way. And anybody who doesn´t can still press the reset button....
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Does anyone who puts some thought and effort into the game have any real problems with promo to Ama?
/gb/forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=27793#scroll
Stu, what you're suggesting is practically a new tier between Rookie and Ama, where you get to retain the package or a part of it. It is almost the same as growing the pyramid. I understand it's not quite the same, you're talking about having Rookie A for those who relegate from Ama, those who reset and those in Rookie B who have completed a full season but failed to promote, and have them running side by side. But if you expect top 3 from Rookie B promote to Ama alongside top 3 from Rookie A, there would be some problems with that:
1) If Rookie A retain their packages for the start of their season, there will be a big inequality between RA and RB promotees once they reach Ama and it will be much harder for those from RB to retain and grow, so they will be more likely to relegate to RA. That is not only a disadvantage to RB promotees, but also practically creating a pathway for everyone to take: promotion from RB to Ama and then (almost) a mandatory relegation to RA, especially if you want to further cut down the number of retention spots in Ama.
2) Once newbies like that (from RB) relegate from Ama to RA, they will find it harder to promote back up, as there will be a higher concentration of experienced players in each group. It will be much harder for those newbies to make it back into Ama. This will be even more demotivating in itself. And the same applies to newbies from RB who've done a full season but didn't promote, who then end up in a similar situation, stuck in RA because they have to fight with a higher number of well prepared experienced managers.
3) When resetting back to Rookie there are consequences, i.e. you lose your package. If that is not a deterrent anymore, you will have more people resetting their accounts when they know they'll get to keep some of their package in RA. That is not in the spirit of the game. If you want to retain a part of your package, you don't reset to Rookie; you relegate to Ama instead. And if you reset, then you should start from zilch, that's the cost of your reset.
4) As things stand at the moment, we don't have a high concentration of experienced managers in each Rookie group; it's more of a spread. If a manager chooses to reset, there has to be a harsh penalty for it, and taking the package back to the start is exactly that. So you may have 2 or 3 relatively experienced guys in a Rookie group, 1 or 2 of those just retaining and training their drivers, but there are always spots for the newer managers to promote if they wish to do so and apply a little bit of a thought. Every season, in a vast majority of Rookie groups, you have guys promoting to Ama in their 1st or 2nd season. That bit is not broken. Sure, with fewer Rookie groups now things will change, but isn't that what everyone's been wanting, more competition in lower tiers? That's why we have the reduction of the number of Rookie and Ama groups. Tougher to score points and promote to or retain Ama. This is exactly what everyone was complaining about, that things were too easy in Rookie and Ama. So now you'd again be looking at very easy Rookie groups (RB) and then hard groups (RA), even harder than they will be now with the new pyramid, and still people failing to promote to Ama.
5) For newbies who have done a full season and then fight for promo the following season, if they miss out it's only because they haven't learned enough. Same goes for managers who get relegated from Ama, they obviously haven't put an effort into learning the game. And you'll always have those people, that's why we keep having spots available for promo, and it applies to all tiers. You can't make things easier just because you think people get discouraged. It is easy enough at the Rookie level already. There will always be disappointment and demotivation, no matter which level of the game it is. You've got to spend time learning, gaining experience, testing things, collecting and analysing data, etc, and if you fail to do all that, why would you expect to be competitive against those who do it? That applies to all groups from Rookie to Elite.
6) Your idea is motivated purely by the ability/opportunity to retain some of the package when dropping back to Rookie (whether through reset or relegation from Ama). That's nice; what you're saying is to allow people to start off in RA with better stuff than those in RB, so they don't lose what they've built up, and they don't have to spend the time and money to build it up again. So you know that it puts them in a better position than those in RB. Why would you then put them up against each other in Ama? You're saying: here, have some free facilities and staff skills, maybe some test CCPs too, and have an unfair advantage over some other Rookie promotees once you get to Ama. Is that fair? Like I said, losing your package is the penalty for reset. On the other hand, those people who just promoted to Ama and relegate back within a season or even a few seasons, they don't lose much, and they probably haven't built up their packages properly anyway. This would only further advantage the experienced managers, those who've been playing for a while and just want to have a better run up to Ama. Why would we want that?
Basically, Stu, the whole idea of changing the pyramid, reducing Rookie and Ama groups, was to make them more competitive and interesting, so that it isn't just a walk in the park and people in those tiers can have some stronger groups and are forced to apply themselves. Your idea is a step back; it's making 1 tier (RA) competitive and the other (RB) just a training ground. That's been proposed before and we know it isn't a fix for anything. The alternative is to just make another tier between Rookie and Ama, but we all know that's an absurd idea.
I say let's see how the recent pyramid changes work and then we can come up with ideas how to improve the system further if needed.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,12:24:40 ) I say let's see how the recent pyramid changes work and then we can come up with ideas how to improve the system further if needed.
For sure, but from next season each amateur group is retaining from 34th place and up (186*3 = 558, 558/93 = 6 relegations per amateur group), which means over 30 retentions per group - more than we had last season. I'm not convinced I see the current planned change as much different than what we had before now. The number of groups in amateur needs to drop a lot lower than 93 considering Rookie has now dropped to 186. My general view is that 75 is a better number, promoting 4 from each to Pro while relegating only 12 from Pro to Amateur. However, getting to that number 75 can be as easy or hard as anyone wants to make it, but I generally feel that making the transition smoother would be better for those effected by further change. However, I do see what you're saying about guys from an RA category being so much better off promoting to Amateur than RB.
The problem is really, I don't see a way of keeping all these players in the game without making some kind smoother process with further reduction of amateur - and while it's easy to say we just leave it as it is and hope it all works out, the reality is that retaining in 34th place in amateur next season will be possible. I'm just not convinced that's healthy for the game, so further reduction is almost certainly needed. The question is, does the game increase the size of the bottom tier without any kind of transition and risk losing a lot of players or make necessary future changes and hope everybody keeps playing. Well, that's of course why I floated the A and B idea, but I do acknowledge a lot of the well made points you raised with splitting the tier in such a manner, it would mean RA managers promote back to Amateur in a stronger position most certainly than most RB managers would. Of course it isn't a perfect solution, but I do think some kind of transition would need to be made instead of just chucking more managers out of amateur into the bottom tier without a second thought. Not that I'm against that happening if it were to happen, its just that I can see a potentially damaging consequence from doing so.
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ April 2nd 2018,04:47:37 ) So, Splitting Rookie into A and B categories would be a good idea from your point of view Edwin?
I'm not sure. I mean, the spirit of your proposal is nice, but I'm not too fond of overcomplicating stuff. However, I completely agree with you about the smoother process for newbies. Whereas I agree with Michael's statement about rookies not able to promote in 2 seasons meaning they aren't prepared for Amateur yet, I think that misses a bit your point.
Moreover, objectively speaking, all other things being equal, the jump from Rookie to Amateur is the steepest one in the game. For every other step up the ladder a promoter might arrive (and usually does unless he dropped the ball) in a way better shape than the average retainer from the precedent season, sometimes even with better car and S&F (currently in my group the cars 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th are from promoters and top 10 in cash/sponsorship is filled by promoters, for instance). Amateur is different. Unless the manager is extremely gifted or experienced (and the latter isn't the target demographics of neither the OP or Stuart's proposal), a promoter to Amateur arrives with worse everything than an average retainer: car, driver, S&F, untrainables, sponsorship reserves. Heck, we are comparing the league where resources building is the easiest with the league where resources building is the hardest (yeah, rookie has low costs and no 50% rule, but you have only 17 races limit to build your package before another reset hits you).
Also, I disagree with the idea that demotion to rookie should be penalized. Most demoters to rookie are people in a learning process who are hitting the wall of their first Ammy attempts. Furthermore, I disagree with the conception that experienced managers that choose to do rookie resets must be penalized as well. Why so? Nobody goes to rookie because it's super fun to do so, besides super rookies (and that's adressed with other rules). Going to rookie sucks balls even if there wasn't any penalization altogether. Nobody in their right mind does a rookie demotion/reset because that's a step forward in their game.
Finally, it's always a good exercise, if at least for logic challenge, to evaluate what ifs. In this case, what if the game didn't have a rookie reset when it was created and instead rookie's rules were the same than for the rest of the game? I don't think there would be a suggestion: hey, that's unfair, let's rookie reset the hell of them and strip them off their untrainables while we are at it.
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Stu, I firmly believe that Rookie is there for new players to learn the basics and move up. The real game begins in Ama; this is where you get to retain your package and where you start learning the game properly. We need the competition in Rookie too, make it more exciting, and the new pyramid will hopefully provide that. But once you get up to Ama now, you have a good chance of staying there, have a more competitive environment, learn more and quicker, and you don't lose your package; I don't think that's such a bad thing. There is no need for an additional tier (Rookie A), Ama group does the job already. And we need more newbies racing in Ama rather than Rookie. Why wouldn't that be healthy for the game? Why do you think having 34 retention spots in Ama will be a problem? You'll still have the competition, people will be fighting for promo, but the less experienced players will not have to stress about having to relegate back to Rookie if they make a mess of it. I think that's actually a good idea. Sure we'll have more long-term Ama managers, but that's better than long-term Rookies.
To really address our game's participation, retaining old players and attracting new ones, some other changes will probably need to be made. New features will have to be introduced to revitalise it. I've heard something about introducing some quicker version, that could be a big drawcard. Maybe other things would help, something like introducing merchandising. I know it's been proposed before and it was rejected, but I think it could be done without significantly altering the financial dynamics of the game, yet still add another fun feature to the game. I've meant to write something up about that a long time ago, but never had time to do it properly. But that's on another tangent.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,18:35:15 ) The real game begins in Ama
This is the most annoying phrase and I absolutely hate hearing this.
Nobody wants to join a game and be told that they don't have access to the "real game" for a minimum of 10 weeks, likely 20 or 30. Rookie is not, and should not be treated as a 10 week tutorial.
Don't know about you lot but I got my first real rivals, learnt from my first real competitors and had my first taste at close competition in Rookie. Amateur was level 2, not level 1.
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Josh that was over 30 seasons ago and the game has changed significantly since then whether for the better or not is another conversation.
Freely available tools make Rookie a bit of a farce IMO as you no longer have to learn how to set the car up but the one thing I do feel is a disadvantage is the Rookie reset. Wouldn't it suit everyone if any resets placed the manager in Ama with no loss to untrainables thus keeping Rookie for the true Rookies?
EDIT. By reset I mean those dropping to Rookie from Pro and above.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ April 2nd 2018,19:04:51 ) This is the most annoying phrase and I absolutely hate hearing this.
Nobody wants to join a game and be told that they don't have access to the "real game" for a minimum of 10 weeks, likely 20 or 30. Rookie is not, and should not be treated as a 10 week tutorial.
Don't know about you lot but I got my first real rivals, learnt from my first real competitors and had my first taste at close competition in Rookie. Amateur was level 2, not level 1.
Don't misunderstand me, Josh, I'm not saying Rookie is just a tutorial for newbies; I want more competition in Rookie, that's the fun of it all and Rookie shouldn't be denied of it. There should be good racing there too and it is definitely the first level. All I'm saying is that as things have always been in the past, Rookie is the introductory level, and that reality is such that you come across a bigger bunch of experienced managers in Ama; this is where you have to sharpen up. And this is another reason why I wouldn't want to see a Rookie A and B, like what Stu suggested. Rookie B would basically be a tutorial or like a trial run.
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 2nd 2018,17:14:45 ) the jump from Rookie to Amateur is the steepest one in the game.
True, and that's another reason for more retention spots in Ama.Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 2nd 2018,17:14:45 ) Also, I disagree with the idea that demotion to rookie should be penalized. Most demoters to rookie are people in a learning process who are hitting the wall of their first Ammy attempts. Furthermore, I disagree with the conception that experienced managers that choose to do rookie resets must be penalized as well. Why so? Nobody goes to rookie because it's super fun to do so, besides super rookies (and that's adressed with other rules). Going to rookie sucks balls even if there wasn't any penalization altogether. Nobody in their right mind does a rookie demotion/reset because that's a step forward in their game.
Penalty is probably the wrong way of putting it. Those who relegate to Rookie, or reset, need to start with the same package as those who just joined the game. 5 mln for doing 17 races the previous season are enough of a bono. If we don't have all people in Rookie starting a new season with the same package, if some people have an advantage other than choosing a better driver, then what we're saying to newbies is that they have to run around for a while before they can move up to Ama because there are other people ahead of them in the queue and they get a leg up starting with better facilities, better staff, higher test CCPs, better car parts, etc. I think that might be a bit discouraging, don't you think, Edwin? Everyone is equal at the start of the game (start of Rookie) and they all should have the same opportunities. From that point, it all depends on the manager's skills, but at the start everyone's on an even playing field. That is the "penalty" for resetting back to Rookie. No, you definitely don't reset to Rookie to advance your career, and to me resetting is silly unless you want to tick off some achievements and have some fun building up again, but it's much more beneficial to just relegate to Ama and reboot from there. But if someone wants to go back to Rookie, then need to start just as everyone else. If you're in Ama and can't retain, the same applies, and as I stated above, in that situation you don't lose much anyway.
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 2nd 2018,17:14:45 ) Finally, it's always a good exercise, if at least for logic challenge, to evaluate what ifs. In this case, what if the game didn't have a rookie reset when it was created and instead rookie's rules were the same than for the rest of the game? I don't think there would be a suggestion: hey, that's unfair, let's rookie reset the hell of them and strip them off their untrainables while we are at it.
Yes, we would be saying it's unfair, just for the reason I've mentioned above. You always have to have a level playing field at the start of the game, and that's what Rookie is. You can't have some people starting with an advantage over others. This is why the reset rules have been incorporated into the game. Don't you think so?
Quote ( Mark Wright @ April 2nd 2018,19:13:07 ) Wouldn't it suit everyone if any resets placed the manager in Ama with no loss to untrainables thus keeping Rookie for the true Rookies?
Umm, no, Mark. How nice would it be to reset to Ama from Master or Elite keeping all your facilities at Lv40, trained up staff, with high test CCPs and Lv7 parts on top of a great Ama driver? All Christmases come at once. :D
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ April 2nd 2018,19:04:51 ) This is the most annoying phrase and I absolutely hate hearing this.
Nobody wants to join a game and be told that they don't have access to the "real game" for a minimum of 10 weeks, likely 20 or 30. Rookie is not, and should not be treated as a 10 week tutorial.
I completely agree with you. And I must add that there is a very big observation bias here. Most people treat Rookie as an easy as pie league and getting a strong foot in Amateur as a given. We can easily think that way because, well, we made it, and many of us did that quite quickly. However, numbers won't lie. Besides the period of 30-35 managers per Ammy group, there have always been 15 demoters from Ammy and most of them are managers who weren't able to survive the steep climb, and most of them stopped playing, so they aren't giving their insight in this thread.
As I said in my previous post, retainers from Amateur, besides their normal experience advantages, have a lot of quantitative advantages over newcomers. Unless retainers performed too badly, there is no reason for them to be in worse shape than newcomers from Rookie, so basically true Rookies are double hit in the balls: they lack experience and they lack resources vs. the average Joe in Ammy, so in reality even if equally skilled than that average Joe, a true Rookie promoting to Ammy has it harder to retain, which doesn't make any sense. Forced Rookie reset only makes it worse.
Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,19:32:37 ) Penalty is probably the wrong way of putting it. Those who relegate to Rookie, or reset, need to start with the same package as those who just joined the game. 5 mln for doing 17 races the previous season are enough of a bono. If we don't have all people in Rookie starting a new season with the same package, if some people have an advantage other than choosing a better driver, then what we're saying to newbies is that they have to run around for a while before they can move up to Ama because there are other people ahead of them in the queue and they get a leg up starting with better facilities, better staff, higher test CCPs, better car parts, etc. I think that might be a bit discouraging, don't you think, Edwin?
I see your point, but as I previously stated, that only moves the handicap somewhere else. Yes, a newbie wouldn't be too handicapped thanks to the rookie reset, but said newbie will be very handicaped as soon as he puts his foot in Amateur, which I think is even more unfair. Forcing real Rookies to enter the first competitive league (Amateur) with worse everything than settled guys there isn't cool. I'm not saying it's impossible. Most of us did it. But, again, most of those who didn't aren't playing anymore. It feels backward the steepest promotion challenge in the game is for the least experienced guys in the game.
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To support Ewins post you can have a look at my group ama 70.
We are 3 rookie promotors that have to compete with a lot of experienced players. We are like 5-6 player that have played less than 6 seasons, the rest have way more experience.
With 10 players demoting there will be very hard, if not impossible, for the rookies to retain.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,19:32:37 ) Umm, no, Mark. How nice would it be to reset to Ama from Master or Elite keeping all your facilities at Lv40, trained up staff, with high test CCPs and Lv7 parts on top of a great Ama driver? All Christmases come at once. :D
Erm you can do that now by relegating and you know by untrainables I mean Staff Experience and Staff Tech Skill not car CCPs ;)
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 2nd 2018,19:35:05 ) I see your point, but as I previously stated, that only moves the handicap somewhere else. Yes, a newbie wouldn't be too handicapped thanks to the rookie reset, but said newbie will be very handicaped as soon as he puts his foot in Amateur, which I think is even more unfair. Forcing real Rookies to enter the first competitive league (Amateur) with worse everything than settled guys there isn't cool. I'm not saying it's impossible. Most of us did it. But, again, most of those who didn't aren't playing anymore. It feels backward the steepest promotion challenge in the game is for the least experienced guys in the game.
So what do you propose, Edwin? Taking all the newbies by their hand and walking them into Ama with an extra startup pack to help them retain? C'mon, as you said it, we've all done it. The reason why some can't retain Ama and quit is that they don't apply themselves, and generally because they don't get hooked on the game. I'm just an average Joe, not a genius, yet I was able to retain Ama in my 1st season there before I joined a team. If I could do it by myself, no outside help, no tools, hardly any knowledge or data, just with a little bit of time and effort, then anyone can. And there are plenty of people like me of just average intelligence, who have no problems with doing the same. You've got it the wrong way around, it's not the inability to retain Ama that is driving some people away; it's the lack of interest to learn the game that causes them to fail and quit. There is not much you can do about that except try to make the game more interesting, not easier. And you still will have people who just try it for a while, maybe a few seasons even, and decide that it's not for them, they don't have enough time for it, etc. Making thigs easier is not the fix.
Quote ( Mark Wright @ April 2nd 2018,19:57:57 ) untrainables
Sorry, Mark, I've missed that bit. :D
As for relegating back with Lv40 facilities, high CCPs, etc, I haven't thought about that, have I :D It's 2 am here and my wires aren't contacting anymore. But why would then anybody want to reset to Ama keeping just the untrainable skills? Surely better to relegate slowly. And I think that's the case with resetting back to Rookie anyway; what's the point of it?
Btw, my wife's been giving me the shits and I almost missed the market. I realised it's almost time with 30 seconds left and just picked a free TD and made a full offer. had no time to make any calculations. I'm a bit dark about that, so my wife's sleeping on the couch tonight; just brought her a pillow.
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Hundreds of rookies that have been languishing at the back of ama groups for many seasons are about to be relegated back to Rookie, will be interesting to see how many stick around, doubt many would miss untrainables, some should enjoy being able to race with their real rivals again.
Rookie needs to have resets, sounds like something a novice tier could fix :P
Of course now I'm in Pro I simply do not care about those peasant rookies or ama scum ;)
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,20:09:07 ) So what do you propose, Edwin? Taking all the newbies by their hand and walking them into Ama with an extra startup pack to help them retain?
Please don't go that route, Michael. I find that pretty dismissive. I'm providing objective data here: unlike every other league, newcomers to Amateur arrive in worse shape than the previous season's retainers. More factual data: before there were 30-35 managers per group in Amateur, newcomers in Amateur had the lowest retention chances compared with newcomers to every other league. I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible here, and I find it completely weird a newcomer to Elite has it relatively easier than a newcomer to Amateur.
Now, since you put that this way, yeah, I'd give them a startup pack that compensates the average disadvantages they have once they arrive in Amateur. But I wouldn't treat that as a babysitting hand but as an equalizing hand. Furthermore, I think 30M bonus pack would probably be even too low, because an average Amateur, without breaking a sweat, can get 50M/season plus loads of sponsorship reserves while easily retaining, let alone the accumulated reserves of an average Amateur after a few seasons in the league.
Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,20:09:07 ) I'm just an average Joe, not a genius, yet I was able to retain Ama in my 1st season there before I joined a team. If I could do it by myself, no outside help, no tools, hardly any knowledge or data, just with a little bit of time and effort, then anyone can.
Assuming that's true and that's a real representation of the universe of players, hence demoting people from Amateur are exclusively unmotivated/stupid managers, how would the OPs suggestion change that? If anything, that would emphasize that, because experienced but unmotivated/stupid managers would have a harder time to survive vs. newcomers from Rookie.
Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,20:09:07 ) There is not much you can do about that except try to make the game more interesting, not easier.
I don't see how the OPs proposal makes the game easier. I've said that several times already: we are choosing when we are handicapping rookies, either right when they join the game (and only at that very specific time) or right when they arrive in Amateur (and every single time they hit Amateur if they demote to Rookie afterwards).
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 2nd 2018,20:36:03 ) I don't see how the OPs proposal makes the game easier. I've said that several times already: we are choosing when we are handicapping rookies, either right when they join the game (and only at that very specific time) or right when they arrive in Amateur (and every single time they hit Amateur if they demote to Rookie afterwards).
Once upon joining the game and on every requested reset after that, be it in Rookie from any other group,
would be my take on it.
And I simply do not believe 33-50% of players in the game are just too lazy or uninterested to put in the effort needed to manage to stay in Ama. I rather see it as 90%+ do put the effort in to learn, or join a team, or get mentor and some help, or do their research even if not doing all calcs themselves, to do a decent enough job of it BUT with 33% being in Rookie every given season, and over a few seasons more than 50% getting there (with the new level groupings), even 80% of those doing stints in Rookie over each 3-4 season time are putting the effort in but going down to Rookie again simply because the remaining players, those managing to stay in Ama or above, simply had better help, better driver, better luck, or were just better at the game.
Simply put an average player can get to Ama but will drop down to Rookie again or never leave Ama, as average tends to be around the 50% mark, incidentally not making you an average Joe player Michael. You can downplay your own level of the game but it's not tricking others, you do know what you are doing to a degree higher than average.
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Don´t forget everybody is free to play the game how wanna do.
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Edwin, with 34 Ama retention positions next season there won't be a problem for anyone advancing from Rookie to retain. In fact, you really have to completely mess it up to relegate even now with 30 retention positions. There are around 35 or 34 active players per Ama group and if you do 17 races, you're likely to retain as you're bound to have 1 reasonable result. Why do we need any handicaps for Rookies? Sure, there is a bigger disadvantage when promoting to Ama compared to promo into any other group, that's obvious; you have just 1 season to train up your driver from the max OA allowed in Rookie, whereas you can have almost 2 seasons to do the same in Ama, Pro and Master, and that's just the start of it. But at the same time Ama is the easiest to retain, and don't tell me that's not the case. It's not about how well you're positioned moving into Ama vs any other group, but more about how likely you are to retain the group after promo.
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ April 2nd 2018,20:36:03 ) Assuming that's true and that's a real representation of the universe of players, hence demoting people from Amateur are exclusively unmotivated/stupid managers,
Please, don't make me sound like an inconsiderate dick, I've never said that those who don't retain Ama are stupid, Edwin. All I said was that I'm not the brightest candle on a birthday cake myself, but what I lack in smarts I make up with effort, and there is no reason why, these days especially, people who really want to play the game and apply some thought to it shouldn't be able to retain Ama. When I first retained Ama there were 4 promo spots and 20 retention places. It was harder yet the game was growing. So is that a real issue here now? I don't think so. Not with so many retention places. And from next season onward it will be hard not to retain Ama. So as you said: "before there were 30-35 managers per group in Amateur", which means that data is not aplicable anymore, and maybe that's why I'm being a bit dismissive. It is easier to retain Ama than it's ever been, and will be even easier. So where is the problem? No need for a handicap now, is there? We'll see how these new Rookie numbers work out, because it will be harder to actually get out of Rookie, I think, but only time will tell if newcomers will need any sort of helping hand to start with. Not sure it would be a good idea anyway.
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Just out of interest, what other ideas do people have? Cos, we could just drop to 75 ama of course (4 promote from each ama and the bottom 12 relagate from each Pro to keep Top 3 tiers unchanged). I wonder how many people would support that WITHOUT there being any kind of smooth transition for those being forced down a level. Honestly, 31 retainers per group - 34th up to 4th - is going to be a big mistake, I just wish more people could see it...I think Michal does...trouble is I don't see a better way than 75 ama groups, the problem is I don't think some of you guys realise the pain that would potentially cause by not having some kind of "softer" relegation. So, just chucking managers out of amateur isn't going to be viable when you consider so many of the player base are in amateur.
So, with that in mind what would be acceptable? Allowing players to drop to rookie with untrainables maintained but everything else reset? Would people be sold on that. The pyramid is still a major issue even when we get to 93 ama groups and this current change is nothing more than a sticking plaster.
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as a rookie its fine to reset, but maybe keep the sponsors?
I spent 10-12 races , getting a sponsorship deal, which then is reset at season end!
Kind of pointless, as you never get the benefit of the whole deal!
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 1st 2018,21:19:35 ) Race participants: 7214 Rookie: 2387 = 33%
Proves people are THAT interested in racing in Rookie, I guess.
Were they alive when the current Rookie division even formed? I thought inactive accounts were dealt with every season?
Okay, 50% spots. Nvm.
I agree that one must be above average to jump out of rookie to actually learn and play. Those above are satisfied for sure. Those below... hrm. You need a real steady supply of fresh meat to fill that bottom for you. People with only one season build come to Amateur and face people with sponsors from Pro. Fair. Even. Right. That's what higher divisions are about - okay. But up there relegation is a mere setback or a planned break, not a game over. And you guys still want to relegate more, more, and even more... Oops! whining again. As said above, the discussion is absolutely about where to draw the line.
Oh! Is it time to add some bot racers now? Instead of cutting the pyramid over and over? That would probably really liven things up. April 2nd, I checked :p
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Quote ( Jody Parker @ April 2nd 2018,21:01:15 ) And I simply do not believe 33-50% of players in the game are just too lazy or uninterested to put in the effort needed to manage to stay in Ama. I rather see it as 90%+ do put the effort in to learn, or join a team, or get mentor and some help, or do their research even if not doing all calcs themselves, to do a decent enough job of it
Jody, if you have 35 managers in an Ama group, there are (currently) just 5 of them relegating back to Rookie, and that's 14%. So it's not such a high percentage. You've included all Rookies, but you shouldn't. There will always be a number of people who have to relegate, but if they learn and gain experience, they will always come back stronger and can retain next time. I've never said that everyone should be able to retain the first time they get into Ama. Also, how many of the Rookies are actually competing in every race? Your numbers include those who dip their toes in the water and then give up, those who race 1 round, then miss 1, then race another 2 or 3 and miss a couple again, those who reset (so they've been up to higher tiers), etc. The same goes for a lot of those who relegate from Ama. Some are patchy in their participation. Check the time people spend on the game. So saying that 33-50% of current players may not be putting in the effort just because that's the percentage of Rookies plus those who relegate from Ama at any given time, is more than a misrepresentation of the true numbers.
All I'm saying is that if someone wants to play the game, they will learn to at least retain Ama, and with a bit of time and effort, have a good chance of moving up to Pro. No, not everyone will, but everyone has the same chances, the starting point is the same for everyone. Does the game come with some assurances that I don't know about? Do we promise that everyone who tries to play the game will make it out of Rookie even? C'mon, guys, if you can't kick a football, should you be on the soccer team before you learn? It sounds a bit harsh, but believe me, I'd love to see everyone who's playing the game to move up into Master or at least Pro at some stage (I want to see the game grow), and a lot do, but all those who do it also spend more time learning the game first; they persevere. But if a person gives up after a couple of seasons, we can't do anything about that. And that exists everywhere, not just GPRO, and only a small percentage make it to the top.
Quote ( Jody Parker @ April 2nd 2018,21:01:15 ) incidentally not making you an average Joe player Michael. You can downplay your own level of the game but it's not tricking others, you do know what you are doing to a degree higher than average.
Ok, now I'm not an average player, but I'm still of just average intelligence. I'm just into this game and give it a lot of time (or used to give it a lot of time, not quite as much lately). So I know that everybody who wants to play the game properly, give it a reasonable amount of time, is capable of reaching the higher tiers.
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I don't get where the 34 retention positions come from, the announcement states: "Positions below and including 31st will relegate to Rookie."
So if it's made into 40 (38-40) active players in each Ama group there will be 93*(at least 8)=744, even up to 930, players dropping from Ama to Rookie each season, or until it's dropped below 93 Ama groups again. That's more than 14% Michael, minimum 21% and up to 25% of Ama dropping to being reset every season.
As for the 33% I used I got that from someone else's calculation on active managers for one race v how many of those were in Rookie. The actual number might be lower, maybe down to 25%, but I stand by that with the new scheme it's likely nearly 50% of the player base will be in Rookie at some point within a 3-4 season span. I am not saying it's in one season, never did, but over the span of several season. It's still nearly or about 50%, half the players, that end up being reset, most of those over and over again.
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Jody, there's 186 rookie groups = 558 guaranteed promotions. 558/93 = 6. From next season there will be 6 relegations, there's only more this season because there is 106 groups. So, that's where 34th retains in amateur (from next season) - a total of 31 retentions per amateur group (before any additional promotions needed for Pro)
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+ any Additional Promotions. And if that's the case how can the announcement for the restructure state about this season:
"At the end of season 64 there will be 3 promotions per group and 60 additional promotions from Amateur to Pro. Positions below and including 31st will relegate to Rookie."
So this season with 105 Ama groups 840 (8*105) to 1050 will relegate to Rookie and 558 will promote. That leaves 282-492 more in Rookie next season and thus at least 10 more Rookie groups (if keeping 30 per group as this season) and as many as 17 more, so more promotions
Season 65 a mere 744-930 will be demoted from Ama and we'll have more Rookie groups so more people will also promote, so no, I don't believe it will be 34 safe in Ama, I think they'll stick with the 31-40 are relegated. The maths says so too, or nearly, but they also state that more restructuring can happen after season 65 if need be.
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lmao sounds great Jody, what a marvellous complete fix that would be....
why is this happening again? The admins have made it perfectly clear that they see no problem with having up to half of all players in rookie, so be it.
Jukka said likely 6 per group for S65 btw. Though quite why this has not been announced at the start of the season is beyond me... oh wait .... prioritizing changing existing tracks lengths, hmmmm
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ April 2nd 2018,21:24:27 ) Please, don't make me sound like an inconsiderate dick, I've never said that those who don't retain Ama are stupid, Edwin.
You're correct. I shouldn't have wrote that. My apologies.
I'd appreciate if any admin may edit that part from my post.
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