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Topic: Mercedes DAS steering wheel system |
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#1 posted Feb 21st 2020, 17:01:47
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Hi everyone,
Wanted to start a topic on the new DAS steering system Mercedes have brought to testing. I feel like it could definitely give a huge advantage to the car in straights and the corners, while preserving some tire life as well. What are everyone else’s thoughts on this new innovation?
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#2 posted Feb 21st 2020, 17:55:27
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The FIA have already banned it from next season onwards. Which is a shame really. I think it's an extremely clever piece of engineering. Will be interesting to see if any other teams will develop their own version (I doubt the smaller teams will as they can't use it next season).
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#3 posted Feb 21st 2020, 18:12:25
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Quote ( Paul Williams @ February 21st 2020,17:55:27 ) The FIA have already banned it from next season onwards.
Should have been banned this season also, as it will give Mercedes an unfair advantage.
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#4 posted Feb 21st 2020, 18:13:09
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#5 posted Feb 21st 2020, 18:30:32
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The fact that they are bringing innovation into F1 is already commendable. F1's core value is innovation - I think it's amazing what they brought to the table.
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#6 posted Feb 21st 2020, 19:16:58
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Merecedes may have just taken that 'one step ahead' of everyone else. It will be interesting in race trim. Here's to another good year of racing in F1.
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#7 posted Feb 21st 2020, 19:45:58
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Great piece of innovation (coming from a life long Ferrari fan).
I was though looking forward to a 3 way fight this year and some exciting races, looks like this won't be happening. Another Mercedes walkover.
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#8 posted Feb 21st 2020, 19:48:37
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I think it is way too early to rate the importance of this system. I would even think it is not very important, or else they would have only revealed it in the second week of testing. It should be pretty marginal gains, I feel.
I also think it's not going to be very difficult for other teams to copy, probably by the 2nd or 3rd race of the season you will see other teams having it... unless they feel the gains are so small it's not even worth the effort.
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#9 posted Feb 21st 2020, 19:53:17
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Just off the top of my head, I can imagine it being most useful at tracks with both long straights and tight technical sections where getting the nose turned in is crucial. They won't have to compromise as much between straight line speed and sharper turn in
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#10 posted Feb 21st 2020, 20:04:23
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 21st 2020,19:48:37 ) [i I also think it's not going to be very difficult for other teams to copy, probably by the 2nd or 3rd race of the season you will see other teams having it... unless they feel the gains are so small it's not even worth the effort.
Well apparently they have been planning for it over a year now (according to Bottas) so maybe it is more complicated then it seems, especially if the suspension system has been built around it. That wont be easy to change.
Quote ( Tan S Lake @ February 21st 2020,19:53:17 ) Just off the top of my head, I can imagine it being most useful at tracks with both long straights and tight technical sections where getting the nose turned in is crucial. They won't have to compromise as much between straight line speed and sharper turn in
Yes hopefully in places like Monaco it wont have any affect, but China (if that race happens) and Baku could give them a huge advantage!!!
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#11 posted Feb 21st 2020, 20:12:40
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I agree with Steven and Tan. It's always good some innovation.
It will give a small advantage in the straights and even in the tight curves.
In the case of Safety cars in track, the problem to get the front tyres warmer will disappear.
In cold races it will be easier to get warmer tyres obtaining a big advantage.
In F1 is easy to get warmer temps in rear tyres. But it's hard to get warmer temps in front tyres.
And it's all mechanic!
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#12 posted Feb 21st 2020, 20:27:13
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Quote ( Vitor Novo @ February 21st 2020,20:12:40 ) In the case of Safety cars in track, the problem to get the front tyres warmer will disappear.
In cold races it will be easier to get warmer tyres obtaining a big advantage.
In F1 is easy to get warmer temps in rear tyres. But it's hard to get warmer temps in front tyres.
And it's all mechanic!
How so? If anything it would have the opposite affect. The whole point of straightening the toe is to reduce aero drag and tyre wear. Reducing the tyre wear means lower temps because the tyres are straight ahead, this reduces the dragging affect along the surface (anything not straight will be 'dragged' across the surface) this reduces temperature and therefore tyre wear.
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#13 posted Feb 21st 2020, 21:33:32
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The point is they can choose to keep a big toe (ha) along the straights to increase front tyre temperatures when needed.
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#14 posted Feb 21st 2020, 21:46:34
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 21st 2020,21:33:32 ) The point is they can choose to keep a big toe (ha) along the straights to increase front tyre temperatures when needed.
That can be helpful since they have the "must use 2 compounds" rule as sometimes it can be more difficult to get the other compound heated properly.
With DAS they might be able to get both compounds in more optimal temp with less compromise
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#15 posted Feb 21st 2020, 22:22:31
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It may help to 'switch on the tire' after a safety car parade. Zero camber weaving will scuff the tires to temperature.
Most noticeable will be the even temperature across more tire tread afforded when in the straights.
More tire grip and less mechanical drag and although 'small' this will get the car down the track faster.
Very nice bit of engineering to think that way. I hope it is a fantastic change even if I'm not a Mercedes fan.
Race on Sunday and sell on Monday? Not this year but in ~2 years it will be on a road vehicle no doubt. Less tire wear and less fuel needed while electric cars could utilise this feature and hook it up to the car Computer to alter as needed. Just amazing!
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#16 posted Feb 21st 2020, 22:25:33
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Quote ( Roy Mitchell @ February 21st 2020,22:22:31 ) Race on Sunday and sell on Monday? Not this year but in ~2 years it will be on a road vehicle no doubt. Less tire wear and less fuel needed while electric cars could utilise this feature and hook it up to the car Computer to alter as needed. Just amazing!
To be fair, adjustable toe is not a new invention, it's just the first time someone figured out how to implement it legally in F1. :)
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#17 posted Feb 21st 2020, 22:27:14
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Then maybe we won't see it on the road after all :)
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#18 posted Feb 21st 2020, 23:05:12
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 21st 2020,19:48:37 ) I also think it's not going to be very difficult for other teams to copy, probably by the 2nd or 3rd race of the season you will see other teams having it... unless they feel the gains are so small it's not even worth the effort.
Binotto said Ferrari will evaluate whether to develop it or not but they could not have it before half season.
As a Ferrari supporter, I'm fascinated with this brand new idea from Mercedes. It's still too early to understand the real impact of DAS but if this will result in huge advantage for Mercedes, well... Chapeau!
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#19 posted Feb 21st 2020, 23:11:19
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Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ February 21st 2020,23:05:12 ) Binotto said Ferrari will evaluate whether to develop it or not but they could not have it before half season.
That said, it might not be such a good investment, specially if it's gonna be banned for next season.
If designing the feature takes a lot of resources and can only be used for ~half season... ... if the benefit isn't huge they might just decide not to go for it due to fiscal sense
Otoh if it's a relatively cheap thing to do, then they might go after it even if the benefit is relatively small.
Note: The word "relatively" might mean something different to people like Binotto and other F1 people compared to us mere mortals :)
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Now they've done it, it seems so obvious and I can't believe someone's not done it before.
Everyone seems to think it's for straight line advantage. I don't think it's for performance, it seems far more likely to be for tyre wear across race distance.
I actually think their rear suspension may be a greater technical advantage.
And for those saying it's unfair? Bollocks. That's the sport! It's great! In the spirit of the F duct, active suspension, double diffuser, fan, double chassis, skirts, 6 wheelers.
And do you know one great innovation like this?
Wings.
I love it.
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#21 posted Feb 22nd 2020, 03:30:32
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Won’t it flinch when the driver is subject to sudden forces? Like cutting a corner or spinning or aqua planning
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#22 posted Feb 22nd 2020, 10:21:47
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Quote ( Dalila Navarrete @ February 22nd 2020,03:30:32 ) Won’t it flinch when the driver is subject to sudden forces? Like cutting a corner or spinning or aqua planning
I had considered that but all that a sudden unexpected movement would do would toe-in or toe-out the front wheels a bit - not going to give any loss of control.
The mechanism looks pretty solid - not like it is flapping loosely in and out. I get the impression there are some hydraulics involved or some sort of friction mechanism
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#23 posted Feb 22nd 2020, 11:37:55
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I think its a decoy really
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#24 posted Feb 22nd 2020, 17:37:04
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Quote ( Hans Mörtsjö @ February 22nd 2020,11:37:55 ) I think its a decoy really
For another device or car part, you mean?
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#25 posted Feb 22nd 2020, 19:27:51
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I've also been wondering if it has any effect to the rear of the car. We get to see how it changes the front from the onboard cameras but we don't get much view of the rear as they are pulling/pushing the wheel.
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#26 posted Feb 22nd 2020, 20:08:43
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The rear wheels are not affected, that is definitely not allowed in the rules.
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Quote ( Edward Coulman @ February 21st 2020,20:27:13 ) How so? If anything would have the opposite effect. The whole point of straightening the toe is to reduce aero drag and tyre wear. Reducing the tyre wear means lower temps because the tyres are straight ahead, this reduces the dragging affect along the surface (anything not straight will be 'dragged' across the surface) this reduces temperature and therefore tyre wear.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ February 21st 2020,21:33:32 ) The point is they can choose to keep a big toe (ha) along the straights to increase front tyre temperatures when needed.
Answered.
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