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Topic: Hamilton vs Schumacher - Which One? |
112 replies
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#61 posted Oct 12th 2020, 16:27:55
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#62 posted Oct 12th 2020, 17:04:04
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I think that Schumacher was better. If you compare Ferrari's "dominant" years 2000-2004, you will see season 2003, where he was fighting whole season with drivers from TWO other teams. In 2014 hybrid era Mercedes have the best combinations of car and engine for the whole time, even with 2017-18 Ferrari being close, but not close enough. And I think that in 2019 and 2020 Mercedes doesn't show his full potential, because they don't have to do it. Even if Ferrari or Verstappen wins some races, it's because they push their cars by 110% of limit (that's why Honda broke up 2 times in Verstappen's car). Of course Hamilton equal number of wins yesterday mostly because of more races in single season. I think that Schumacher would have around 105 wins, if 1994-2006 seasons have this 3-4 more races per season (making average 19 races per season).
Just one more thing, maybe a little bit of offtopic - Bottas is average driver, much like Kovalainen in McLaren 2008-2009. Even I see analogy - Mercedes signs Bottas for 2017, because they build it for next WCC for Hamilton, cause Rosberg fought with Brit in 2014-2016, same in 2008 in McLaren, Kovalainen lost to both BMW drivers and Alonso despite having "same" car as World Champion, where in 2007 Alonso, if McLaren would treat equally both drivers, would have won the title. Of course i don't forget that Schumacher also hasn't got any suitable driver throught his best years (except for 2006 Massa)
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#63 posted Oct 12th 2020, 18:13:15
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thanks for the edit LOL I suppose I am the only one who gets a laugh out of being vague
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#64 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:03:49
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Quote ( Sudeep Pednekar @ October 12th 2020,15:44:00 )
literally every delusional person says this.
For how many years was Senna in the sport with Schumacher, 2-3 years? Prost retired in 93 as well so just a few years.
Hamilton has had a 3 WDC as teammates. Michael has had how many?
Hamilton hasn't had a "dominant" car since 2014. 2014-16 yes. 17-18 Ferrari was faster for a big chunk of the season, 19 Ferrari was competitive & did not win races due to mech or driver errors.
so basically today we know now that ferrari was cheating and results showed that the only real competition hamilton had since 2014 was rosberg, making formula 1 boring and hoping that someone can rival mercedes (what would happen if verstappen wasn't racing?). I feel that hamilton had an easier path than schumacher had back in his days. Yes, he didn't race that much against prost, senna or mansell but you have to remember that mclaren and williams were miles ahead benetton (except '93) and schumacher was there giving them a hard time. After that while he was developing ferrari (96-99) he almost won against the dominant mclaren and williams. Hamilton didn't had to pass through that kind of struggle, he had always been in a top team (mclaren and mercedes). Hamilton is a great driver but I would like to see him in the position of verstappen now (lower class car) and if he could win the championship in that situation then I could say that he is good as schumacher.
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#65 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:08:05
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Quote ( Jonathan Beagles @ October 11th 2020,18:20:03 ) Button :P
The only correct answer I have seen in this thread. Well done Mr Beagles
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#66 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:16:40
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Quote ( Daniel Bonilla @ October 12th 2020,19:03:49 ) After that while he was developing ferrari (96-99) he almost won against the dominant mclaren and williams. Hamilton didn't had to pass through that kind of struggle, he had always been in a top team (mclaren and mercedes). Hamilton is a great driver but I would like to see him in the position of verstappen now (lower class car) and if he could win the championship in that situation then I could say that he is good as schumacher.
Hamilton has already been in that position in Mclaren, when the car was 2nd or 3rd best from 09-12. Especially in 09 the car was garbage and he got 3 wins with it. Schumacher is a driver, the fact that he "built" ferrari is overhyped as f. He isn't an engineer, it was Ross Brawn, Jean Todt etc who did that.
Hamilton started his career in a top team because he was already good enough, he did not need to prove himself in a smaller team. That itself is a measure of his greatness. If you want to see how good Hamilton was in an equal car go watch his GP2 days where he frequently destroyed the entire field.
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#67 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:17:33
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Oh yeah cool, this kinda debate. Well, I can't stay silent even though I probably should ;p
Statistically, Hamilton will soon have all the big records, which would make him greater statistically. By statistics, Hamilton also has spent the most races in a clear-cut dominating car (149 races, the '07 season and every since '14 to right now), soon to be double the amount of Schumacher (86 races, the '95 Season and '00-'04 except '03). So, statistically speaking it could also just be the car, not the driver. The crux about Statistics - You can bend them to suit your agenda most of the time.
Fun Fact - At the end of his contract next year, Bottas (or as I like to call him - Bottletas/Barrichello 2.0) will have had more races in a dominating car than Schumacher (unless 2021 will be different, which I don't expect.)
My answer will always be Schumacher for the simple fact that he revolutionised the sport in a similiar fashion Johan Cryuff changed football or Muhammad Ali changed boxing (latter not sure about, never really cared about that sport).
In the pre-Schumacher era, drivers were athletes, yes, but on a pretty basic level. Schumacher raised the bar on this aspect, spent more time training, testing, working than any before him. Nowadays, this is Standard, but only because of him. And while Senna will always be remembered for crazy, magical single laps that were way beyond the limit, Schumacher will always be remembered for doing laps that were slightly slower, but consistent, corner after corner, lap after lap, race after race. An example of that would be Hungary 1998, which I still consider his finest victory of them all, where he just chained qualifying lap after qualifying lap for 19 laps.
The thing Schumacher has that Hamilton doesn't is having had Seasons with mediocre cars or fighting against the most dominant car. The Benetton of 1994 shouldn't have won the Championship, especially after the FIA tried to intervene with their ridicoulous BS in Britain 1994 (you can fight me on that, I'll always consider it an attempt of intervention). The Ferrari's of 1997 and 1998 should have never been capable of going to the final race for a Championship fight (and yes, there doesn't need to be a debate about how stupid of an action Jerez had been). The Ferrari of 1996 shouldn't have been a race-winning car.
I don't remember Hamilton really having that. '08 was probably the closest to that, but there wasn't much between Ferrari and McLaren back then. And in '09, the only real Season when he had a garbage car, he didn't really shine until the car improved halfway through the Season (you can see that both him and Kovalainen, a way worse driver, improved from Hungary onwards).
So yeah, tl;dr, Schumacher for me ;p
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#68 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:20:34
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:17:33 ) In the pre-Schumacher era, drivers were athletes, yes, but on a pretty basic level. Schumacher raised the bar on this aspect, spent more time training, testing, working than any before him. Nowadays, this is Standard, but only because of him. And while Senna will always be remembered for crazy, magical single laps that were way beyond the limit, Schumacher will always be remembered for doing laps that were slightly slower, but consistent, corner after corner, lap after lap, race after race. An example of that would be Hungary 1998, which I still consider his finest victory of them all, where he just chained qualifying lap after qualifying lap for 19 laps.
This logic works against Schumacher not in favor of him because as you can see Hamilton has to fight drivers who mostly are at their peaks in terms of fitness & mental health, whereas back then just because Michael was doing those sort of things he had an advantage over all the other drivers.
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#69 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:23:04
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:17:33 ) Oh yeah cool, this kinda debate. Well, I can't stay silent even though I probably should ;p
Statistically, Hamilton will soon have all the big records, which would make him greater statistically. By statistics, Hamilton also has spent the most races in a clear-cut dominating car (149 races, the '07 season and every since '14 to right now), soon to be double the amount of Schumacher (86 races, the '95 Season and '00-'04 except '03). So, statistically speaking it could also just be the car, not the driver. The crux about Statistics - You can bend them to suit your agenda most of the time.
Fun Fact - At the end of his contract next year, Bottas (or as I like to call him - Bottletas/Barrichello 2.0) will have had more races in a dominating car than Schumacher (unless 2021 will be different, which I don't expect.)
My answer will always be Schumacher for the simple fact that he revolutionised the sport in a similiar fashion Johan Cryuff changed football or Muhammad Ali changed boxing (latter not sure about, never really cared about that sport).
In the pre-Schumacher era, drivers were athletes, yes, but on a pretty basic level. Schumacher raised the bar on this aspect, spent more time training, testing, working than any before him. Nowadays, this is Standard, but only because of him. And while Senna will always be remembered for crazy, magical single laps that were way beyond the limit, Schumacher will always be remembered for doing laps that were slightly slower, but consistent, corner after corner, lap after lap, race after race. An example of that would be Hungary 1998, which I still consider his finest victory of them all, where he just chained qualifying lap after qualifying lap for 19 laps.
The thing Schumacher has that Hamilton doesn't is having had Seasons with mediocre cars or fighting against the most dominant car. The Benetton of 1994 shouldn't have won the Championship, especially after the FIA tried to intervene with their ridicoulous BS in Britain 1994 (you can fight me on that, I'll always consider it an attempt of intervention). The Ferrari's of 1997 and 1998 should have never been capable of going to the final race for a Championship fight (and yes, there doesn't need to be a debate about how stupid of an action Jerez had been). The Ferrari of 1996 shouldn't have been a race-winning car.
I don't remember Hamilton really having that. '08 was probably the closest to that, but there wasn't much between Ferrari and McLaren back then. And in '09, the only real Season when he had a garbage car, he didn't really shine until the car improved halfway through the Season (you can see that both him and Kovalainen, a way worse driver, improved from Hungary onwards).
So yeah, tl;dr, Schumacher for me ;p
Agree, thanks for clearing up my point as well.
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#70 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:24:58
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Quote ( Sudeep Pednekar @ October 12th 2020,19:20:34 ) This logic works against Schumacher not in favor of him because as you can see Hamilton has to fight drivers who mostly are at their peaks in terms of fitness & mental health, whereas back then just because Michael was doing those sort of things he had an advantage over all the other drivers.
Or it means that because of that the car matters much more than before because all drivers are equal in fitness & mental health and as such only the car makes the difference nowadays.
Anything to fit an agenda, I guess.
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The car matters the same as before, that hasn't increased or decreased. I think there were more driver aids back then than right now.
Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:17:33 ) Statistically, Hamilton will soon have all the big records, which would make him greater statistically. By statistics, Hamilton also has spent the most races in a clear-cut dominating car (149 races, the '07 season and every since '14 to right now), soon to be double the amount of Schumacher (86 races, the '95 Season and '00-'04 except '03). So, statistically speaking it could also just be the car, not the driver. The crux about Statistics - You can bend them to suit your agenda most of the time.
This isn't factually true anyway, and everyone likes to sweep it under the rug as if it is. Merc wasn't clear cut dominant for the last 3 years. Plus in those years of dominance Hamilton actually had a competitive teammate to contend with unlike Schumacher.
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#72 posted Oct 12th 2020, 19:42:00
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Quote ( Sudeep Pednekar @ October 12th 2020,19:32:13 ) The car matters the same as before, that hasn't increased or decreased. I think there were more driver aids back then than right now.
How do you know that?
Quote ( Sudeep Pednekar @ October 12th 2020,19:32:13 ) This isn't factually true anyway, and everyone likes to sweep it under the rug as if it is. Merc wasn't clear cut dominant for the last 3 years. Plus in those years of dominance Hamilton actually had a competitive teammate to contend with unlike Schumacher.
They won 15 of 21 races last Season, what the hell man? And both Kovalainen and Bottas are nobodies like Barrichello. Rosberg was better but he was only there for 61 of those 149 races.
'17 and '18 might have been closer but so were '00 and '01 (the latter was won by superior reliability rather than superior speed).
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#73 posted Oct 12th 2020, 20:00:01
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Sorry I did not follow the discussion so far.
Schumacher was best at driving the car at the limit and good developing a car, Hamilton is probably better in things like tyre management what counts nowadays. You probably cannot really compare them.
Schumacher won championships with two different cars.
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:42:00 ) They won 15 of 21 races last Season, what the hell man? And both Kovalainen and Bottas are nobodies like Barrichello. Rosberg was better but he was only there for 61 of those 149 races.
Ferrari should have won Bahrain, Canada, Russia just off the top of my mind. I'm sure there were more. RB should have won Mexico I think. Mercedes weren't clearly dominant, they were slower on those tracks.
17 & 18, Hamilton was trailing Vettel by a significant amount of points halfway through the season, that's how good the Ferrari was. I'm sorry 2001, I just checked, Michael had double the points than the man in second place. How is that close?
Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:42:00 ) How do you know that?
The same way you know the car matters more now? :P
Also yeah they did have traction control back then, now they do not.
Quote ( David Michler @ October 12th 2020,20:00:01 ) Schumacher won championships with two different cars.
So did Hamilton.
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#75 posted Oct 12th 2020, 21:28:14
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:17:33 )
Hamilton also has spent the most races in a clear-cut dominating car (149 races, the '07 season and every since '14 to right now), soon to be double the amount of Schumacher (86 races, the '95 Season and '00-'04 except '03)
What defines a dominant car then? '14-present seems slightly skewed if we won't include '94, '98, '99 for schumi.
Mercedes was often a slower car in '17 '18 whether Ferrari cheated or not. It has been one of the 2 fastest cars since '14 without a doubt and usually the fastest. Schumacher also spent most of his first career (94-95,98-06) driving one of the 2-3 fastest cars on the grid and often times the outright fastest as well.
In terms of dominance, another thing that sets a dominant performance apart has as much to do with the car as the team/driver. Schumacher and Hamilton both have an incredible gift to consistently pull in stellar results and generally surrounded themselves with team players who could do the same.
Vettel would likely be a 5-time champion minus a couple of driver and team errors. I agree with the crux of your well-put argument but I do tend to think people focus too much on car when discussing Hamilton/Schumacher as a comparison.
To me the big difference between Hamilton and Schumacher is that Schumacher was ready to dominate pretty much the moment he came to F1. All the pieces were there, and as you said, he revolutionized the game. Hamilton was raw, talented and fast but did not always play to the big picture. I think he didn't really start performing like a truly dominant champion until 2017 but since then he has been on another planet and equal with greats like Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Prost, Lauda, Clark etc.
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#76 posted Oct 12th 2020, 21:40:22
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ October 12th 2020,21:28:14 ) equal with greats like Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Prost, Lauda, Clark etc.
Man, Senna could finish a Qually with 1,6 seconds of margin over his teammate. Has Hamilton ever done something similar?
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#77 posted Oct 12th 2020, 21:55:31
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I hated Schumacher. I thought he was a cheat when he drove Hill off the track and Villeneuve a couple of years later and those 5 years with Ferrari. But Schumacher did not have win per season ratio that Hamilton has had. Schumacher had a tougher fight in winning those races than Hamilton has had. And where does the question go next?
Schumacher vs Senna?
Senna vs Prost?
Prost vs Lauda?
Lauda vs Fangio?
Schumacher was one of the greats in winning machinery through the 90s and 00s
Hamilton is one of the greats of the 00s and 10s. Hamilton is likely to continue for the next couple of years and will probably get championship number 8, hell, even championship number 9 unless Ferrari or Red Bull can get their act together.
I want to see racing where drivers have the ability to challenge for the race win and it not be about the Mercedes having mechanical failures.
There is a lot of talent out there, but unless they are in a Mercedes, Hamilton is often unbeatable, even Bottas can only luck a win here and there. Rosberg was lucky with a great start to the season and had got to a point where he realised he could finish 2nd to Hamilton and still win.
I'm not a fan of Hamilton. But he's a damn good driver
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ October 12th 2020,21:40:22 )
Quote ( Erik Harken @ October 12th 2020,21:28:14 )
equal with greats like Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Prost, Lauda, Clark etc.
Man, Senna could finish a Qually with 1,6 seconds of margin over his teammate. Has Hamilton ever done something similar?
Worthless stat
Jackie ickx out qualified 2nd place, his teammate by 10.9 seconds.
Not to mention Hamilton put over 1.4s on his teammate (1.2 over 2nd place) in qualifying this year.
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#79 posted Oct 12th 2020, 22:07:06
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Quote ( Vitaly Sevov @ October 12th 2020,21:40:22 )
Quote ( Erik Harken @ October 12th 2020,21:28:14
Has Hamilton ever done something similar?
Yes
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#80 posted Oct 13th 2020, 09:22:26
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Quote ( Kyle Morris @ October 11th 2020,17:46:49 ) Quote ( Jean-marc Boissinot @ October 11th 2020,17:14:24 )
Hamilton!
schumacher didn't really have any competitors in his time (even if it was a great champion too)
I would have said the exact opposite
Schumacher had Hill, Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Coulthard, Raikkonen, Ralf, Montoya, Barrichello, Alonso all who were capable of beating him at some point in his career. He probably had the best car in 94,95,00,01,02,03,04
Hamilton had the best car in 07,08,10,14,15,16,17,18,19,20. Throughout his career he has only really had to deal with Raikkonen, Massa, Vettel, Webber, Button, Alonso and Rosberg. Hamilton has won pretty much half the races between 14-20, with only Rosberg ever coming close to him, and Vettel for a short period. Schumacher did his dominance in 00-04 while having to compete with all the drivers i mentioned minus Hill and Villeneuve
Am i saying Hamilton doesn't deserve the record, no, because he is a great driver, is he better than Schumacher, debatable i would say not, has his car helped him a lot, yes, maybe a little more than Schumacher, but both are probably equally as good as eachother, but comparing different era's is foolish. Would Schumacher have done the same as Hamilton did, or would Hamilton do the same that Schumacher did in eachothers era's, who knows
Besides, Jim Clark and Senna were much better anyway
Kyle, you have hit the "Nail on the Head" Mate.
Both Drivers, including the likes of Senna, had the best car at a particular moment in time, so comparisons are extremely difficult to judge & open to discussion. For me Senna was the "GREATEST", & looking at all 3 of these drivers in the wet where talent shines through, he was the Master (Remember Monaco in 1984).
However,
If you look at sportsmanship, I think Lewis is on top.
Both Michael & Aryton had their moments in that one. (Although Aryton could be forgiven a bit racing the French Prick Prost at the time with the FIA run by a Frenchmen)
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#81 posted Oct 13th 2020, 09:36:28
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Most of Hamilton's success has been in a car and team that Schumacher (and Brawn) helped develop. Say no more!
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:17:33 ) Hamilton also has spent the most races in a clear-cut dominating car
Here's a video for you Tim, and for the people who think Hamilton has had a more dominant car.
Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19MV_y_U_yI
Tl;dr for someone who did not watch the video,
The avg gap to second place when these two won is...
MS - 15.2 seconds
LH - 8.2 seconds
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#83 posted Oct 15th 2020, 14:52:59
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I believe that average gap is not really indicative.
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#84 posted Oct 15th 2020, 14:59:55
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Quote ( Tim Wagner @ October 12th 2020,19:17:33 ) In the pre-Schumacher era, drivers were athletes, yes, but on a pretty basic level. Schumacher raised the bar on this aspect, spent more time training, testing, working than any before him.
not true, mate. Senna did it at least a decade before him.
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#85 posted Oct 15th 2020, 15:02:47
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Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ October 15th 2020,14:52:59 ) I believe that average gap is not really indicative.
If the gap to the next car isn't indicative of dominance, what is?
https://imgur.com/F8dkFw7
Check those in depth stats, MS has 46 victories compared to Hamilton's 32 (where the gap to the next car which isn't their teammate is above 15 seconds).
If you consider teammates then it's still 32-17 in Michael's favor.
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#86 posted Oct 15th 2020, 15:41:10
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It would be if the leader is pushing every lap but I've seen many times LH cruising when he had a safety gap. He could push anytime but he was managing his gap. So the gap itself is not an indicator of dominance imho.
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#87 posted Oct 15th 2020, 15:59:54
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That's really subjective, and it makes no sense to over push(after a certain point) when you don't need to. I don't think Michael(or any other driver) would unnecessarily push when they're that far in the lead. They'd do their natural pace only. Otherwise it just brings reliability problems into the picture. So I don't think that's a valid counter argument.
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#88 posted Oct 15th 2020, 16:11:44
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in terms of gaps saying that Michael's car was better compared to Merc. is pointless and senseless.
look at machinery gap Merc domination is way more... furthermore outside Merc is anyone having fight with Lewis for title no - *cheating Ferrari not included* , no and after Nico left Toto make sure that life is easy for Lewis.... Schumi too had a wingman but outside team were the competition tougher absolutely yes.
it's pointless to compare drivers of different time due to changes in lot of factors but yeah Lewis can't digest it and he is having no competition at all for titles.
AWS made of themselves by comparing quali pace of drivers of diff. time.
even to compare team mates u need to know 3^48 = 79766443076872.5 trillion parameters to exactly put a solid no. who is better and by how much ... so u can think what loads of data u need to have to compare drivers in diff. times with diff. machinery.
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What is this machinery gap? How is that quantified by you to say it is more when the stats say that it is less?
and wtf does cheating ferrari not included mean? Ferrari weren't stripped off their 17-19 points. They were still very competitive.
Hamilton doesn't have a "wingman". It's another thing that Bottas cannot match Hamilton when it comes to a Sunday, but there is no agreement or contract that says Bottas is number 2. He's always allowed to compete. So much so that even in Hungary 2017, Hamilton gave up a podium back to Bottas just because of an agreement when it was obvious that Bottas was never going to compete with Vettel for the WDC.
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#90 posted Oct 15th 2020, 16:21:12
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Schumacher didn't have to save his engine for the next race. Without that rule, Hamilton's average win margin would surely be higher.
As for Schumacher's praised consistency - this was much easier to do in his days because of traction control. Nowadays drivers have to do it without, and with engines that have way more torque in the low RPM range. And on less consistent tyres. So I don't see a good comparison here either.
I guess the best comparison between drivers is to take their absolute numbers (wins, poles etc.) and divide by the number of races entered. Hamilton is well ahead of Schumacher in this regard (34.9% races won vs. 29.5%). Some will argue we should not count Schumacher's Mercedes years, in which case they would be virtually tied here too (on a similar level to Clark, but well behind Fangio and Ascari).
My own answer to the question in the poll is Hamilton, because he's competed against better team mates, won at least one race in every car he's driven, and because his qualifying sessions are some of the best racecraft I have ever seen. But it is only a matter of opinion.
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