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Topic: Economy mechanics overhauling |
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#1 posted Mar 20th 2021, 00:37:16 (last edited Mar 20th 2021, 01:01:38 by Edwin Silva)
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Since a long time ago success in the game has been heavily linked to assets. This particularly evident in Elite but in reality prevalent in every above Amateur tier. Generally one can observe the following, looking at publicly available data:
1. Strong link between expenditures and performance: One can easily gather this by looking at the expenditures of frontrunners in every single tier, including the fabulous 560M to 640M season expenditures required since some time ago in order to have an Elite championship shot.
2. Origin of said resources: One could rightly argue it's normal the top spenders perform better given they also get higher income via Q+R and sponsorship earning. However, again looking at public data this is not really that true. More than 90% of the top spenders in Pro and Master left Amateur just a handful of seasons ago, which implies they are actually using resources gathered in Amateur, both cash and, specially, sponsors (including the very powerful promotion sponsors, which are hard to isolate but should be data available to Vlad).
Moreover, in the last 12 seasons we haven't had a single Elite champion or even a serious contender who isn't either Roland or dedicated a number of seasons to gather resources outside Elite.
3. Overall finances balance: As a direct corollary of the previous 2 points, it isn't surprising the overall finances balance from retainers in Elite excluding sponsorship (but including top 10, Q+R, points, et cetera) in the last few seasons has fluctuated between 82M and 93M in the red (this season it was ~89M). It is completely impossible the average retainer is getting that kind of money via sponsorship per season. Some managers probably do (but then again, most of those who do are having even worse balance), but in average it is not possible. Thus, Elite (and Pro and Master as well) are bleeding resources at a huge race.
There are some elements that might serve as further evidence of this dramatic state. For example, one might wonder what's the best predictor of performance in Elite. Driver OA, maybe? Sounds reasonable, given on top of base OA there is also motivation OA which is heavily influenced by performance in the first place. Well, the cross-correlation value between performance and average driver OA from the Elite retainers this season is 0.48. Not a bad predictor indeed.
What about car level? This one is a bit trickier due to hidden decimals, so the result is a bit noisy. For that variable the cross-correlation with performance is 0.33. A bit worse predictor, but not bad.
Ok, let's go wild. What about losses? By that, I mean the difference between resources spent (public data) and resources generated via public earnings. That sounds ridiculous: how in the world there would be correlation between what one is losing and how well one is performing. If anything one would expect the opposite. Well, not here. The cross-correlation losses vs. performance in Elite is whooping 0.64. The best predictor of how well you perform in Elite (and probably in Pro and Master as well) is how much you're bleeding assets.
With this, it gets clear why the meta for Elite success since a long time ago is streamlined to either being Roland, accumulate obscene assets rushing from Ammy upwards Elite or, although this one probably obsolete with the sponsorship rule changes, accumulate promo sponsors by jumping up and down Master / Elite with Pipis, rinse and repeat. If you're in Elite or on the way there and you don't have those huge reserves already, forget about that, your best shot is a long detour to Amateur.
I don't know if this is working as intended, with the combination of assets being more relevant with the PHA enhanced feature and the very powerful promo sponsors (which became even more powerful with the rules change), but in my opinion that's a very unbalanced state of affairs and it should be addressed.
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#2 posted Mar 20th 2021, 00:39:44
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Credibility of the finances.
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#3 posted Mar 20th 2021, 00:46:06
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After all, this is a money management game?
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I don´t know if you are aware but promo sponsors expire when you relegate.
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#5 posted Mar 20th 2021, 00:48:21
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Ok now my serious input, think of it as saving money for 10 years to be able to make that trip you always wanted to do. You want to make that trip confortably, so you gather as much money as possible.
There isnt much that can be done, the division people can earn more money on and spend the least will be the one with the buses. Any change cannot change this fact: 1 group is simply more cash generator than others; or at least not competitive enough for it to be sustainable.
Can you imagine what would happen if we didnt have a group such as Amateur? If someone got about 2 million dollars in their bank, and for some reason a bad car and driver, how would they recover? By going back to rookie losing everything? Yeah, sure, Amateur is only 1 group higher, but Rookie is just that weird experience that doesnt have many people and also doesnt generate money because you always start the season with 30 million
If someone told you: you have 30 million dollars to spend from Rookie to Elite, now sort yourself out, what would you do? You would basicly have to promote every season before you eventually went bankrupt and gone back to rookie.
I think the system is fine as it is, but its just my opinion in the end of the day.
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#6 posted Mar 20th 2021, 00:55:29
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Quote ( Mick Ridley @ March 20th 2021,00:46:06 ) After all, this is a money management game?
I think the issue he's pointing out here is that you can't actually win by managing money in higher groups, but have to play the macro-game and intentionally destroy your chances for several seasons in succession to ever even get a shot at success.
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#7 posted Mar 20th 2021, 00:56:29
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I am not sure if Edwin is complaining or praising the game but yay i missed Edwin and his walls of text.
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#8 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:00:32
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Not even going to read it.
Wow
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#9 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:01:46
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Quote ( Michael Keeney @ March 20th 2021,01:00:32 ) Not even going to read it.
Wow
He said "Michael Keeney is amazing" in the middle of it, you should read it!
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#10 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:11:11
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Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,01:01:46 )
He said "Michael Keeney is amazing" in the middle of it, you should read it!
Lies, Edwin doesnt look like the type of guy who would do Not Jokes.
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#11 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:11:12
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Quote ( Mick Ridley @ March 20th 2021,00:46:06 ) After all, this is a money management game?
It is. And it was before the powerful Promo sponsors rule or before the PHA enhanced further improved the value of cash and sponsors. I don't know why imply I'm against the game being an assets management game.
Quote ( Constantin Heller @ March 20th 2021,00:55:29 ) I think the issue he's pointing out here is that you can't actually win by managing money in higher groups, but have to play the macro-game and intentionally destroy your chances for several seasons in succession to ever even get a shot at success.
Indeed. As I said, I find it ridiculous all other things being equal from 2 managers, 1 being in Amateur and 1 being in Elite, neither of them with fabulous fortunes under the hood, the former is actually closer to an Elite championship. That's like saying Yeovil is currently closer to a Premier League championship (or even a top place) than Everton (and Everton should go to Vanarama if they want a Premier League shot).
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#12 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:18:02
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ March 20th 2021,01:11:12 ) Quote ( Mick Ridley @ March 20th 2021,00:46:06
Indeed. As I said, I find it ridiculous all other things being equal from 2 managers, 1 being in Amateur and 1 being in Elite, neither of them with fabulous fortunes under the hood, the former is actually closer to an Elite championship. That's like saying Yeovil is currently closer to a Premier League championship (or even a top place) than Everton (and Everton should go to Vanarama if they want a Premier League shot).
Your example just proves that your point is wrong.
Everton has the money. They (however it was) raised that money, while Yeovil, with less money, remains in the lower divisions; but if they got an investor all of the sudden, you would most likely see them climb up some divisions. Slowly, but surely.
You need money to win races. The best place to win that money, currently, is in Amateur. If the mechanics change, and, lets say, Pro is now the place that generates more money, then people would
1) Spend even more time in Amateur in order to promote to Pro and then park in Pro
2) Spend even more time in Amateur in order to have enough cash for an Elite push.
And for what is worth, i am gaining capital while being in Pro. You dont necessarily need to be in Amateur to do that. Obviously it's way easier. But you can do it in Pro. And other places; some managers have been in Elite since forever.
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Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,01:18:02 ) Your example just proves that your point is wrong.
Everton has the money. They (however it was) raised that money, while Yeovil, with less money, remains in the lower divisions; but if they got an investor all of the sudden, you would most likely see them climb up some divisions. Slowly, but surely.
That's like saying a poor person has a higher shot than somebody else to get rich if he wins the lottery.
Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,01:18:02 ) The best place to win that money, currently, is in Amateur. If the mechanics change, and, lets say, Pro is now the place that generates more money, then people would
But things aren't binary. This isn't addressed to you, but many times people argue like if one was proposing exactly the opposite. Amateur can be the recovery league even with more drastic taxes brackets, for instance (which are intended for people who are already rich anyways), or without promotion sponsors (which are used once you already left Amateur and, preferable, once you're in Elite).
Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,01:18:02 ) some managers have been in Elite since forever.
Yup. And unless they are Roland, their better move to give a championship a try is to go down (although Roland himself going to Amateur and building a fortune would produce a championship too, it's just he's capable of doing so with the big handicap as well). Go figure.
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#14 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:44:46
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ March 20th 2021,01:37:40 ) That's like saying a poor person has higher shot than somebody else to get rich if he wins the lottery.
No, what i am saying is: you have the money, you get to spend the money. Thats the basic point here.
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ March 20th 2021,01:37:40 )
But things aren't binary. This isn't addressed to you, but many times people argue like if one was proposing exactly the opposite. Amateur can be the recovery league even with more drastic taxes brackets, for instance (which are intended for people who are already rich anyways), or without promotion sponsors (which are used once you already left Amateur and, preferable, once you're in Elite).
If you are suggesting is of the purpose of decreasing the income in Amateur while still making it a recovery group, nothing would change, except people would want to stay even more time in Amateur and potentially there could be less people wanting to promote than spots to promote.
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ March 20th 2021,01:37:40 )
Yup. And unless they are Roland, their better move to give a championship a try is to go down (although Roland himself going to Amateur and building a fortune would produce a championship too, it's just he's capable of doing so with the big handicap as well). Go figure.
I dont really understand why this is a problem; in fact, i think this is excellent. Wwhat better way of having diversity and excitement each season other than completely chaning the Elite group each time? Dont you think it would be boring if the people in Elite were able to stay in Elite? Progression in this game would be much harder this way, the way i see it. And honestyl, i love that you have to go down to Amateur if you want to have a good base. Shows you that no matter how experienced you are, you will still struggle, and still face obstacles, making this game challenging and fun for everyone, not just for the people who just entered the game. I really dont see the need to change this.
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#15 posted Mar 20th 2021, 01:58:10
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Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,01:44:46 ) Wwhat better way of having diversity and excitement each season other than completely chaning the Elite group each time?
I'm not really a big fan of Elite success being decided by the opposite of diversity and instead by very limited streamlined options. But, again with the binary stuff. I didn't suggest we should go the opposite. In fact, in the early season 40s I was vocal against the big advantage long term Elite tenurers had back then. Which happily changed, but sadly it moved to the opposite extreme.
Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,01:44:46 ) No, what i am saying is: you have the money, you get to spend the money. Thats the basic point here.
You said if Yeovil got a rich investor, they will start succeeding. Which albeit technically right, doesn't show anything. In that example of yours, Yeovil got the rich investor because of being in Vanarama, which is precisely my point: Everton would do better by going to Vanarama themselves because they won't get that rich investor by foolishly staying in the Premier League instead.
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#16 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:06:32
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Meh i will answer tomorrow on my laptop.
I am loving this discussion though!
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#17 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:21:20
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Great game guys! Reads so far:
Ricardo -- Lied about the Keeney comment but I read it as a reaction attempt. Tunneling Edwin HARD is classic Town Ric.
Keeney -- Null read so far. Not bothering to read Edwin is typical from him but he might be up to something here.
Ivan -- Scum. No way he misses Edwin's Wall of Text as he claims.
Bruno -- Clueless townie or scum providing trivial info. C'mon Bruno, stop lurking!
Edwin -- Refuses to believe Roland is playing the same game as the rest of us. Either scum or he knows something and has a PR.
Null on the others.
##Vote Andre
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#18 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:24:34
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Quote ( Brad Marshall @ March 20th 2021,02:21:20 ) Great game guys! Reads so far:
Ricardo -- Lied about the Keeney comment but I read it as a reaction attempt. Tunneling Edwin HARD is classic Town Ric.
Keeney -- Null read so far. Not bothering to read Edwin is typical from him but he might be up to something here.
Ivan -- Scum. No way he misses Edwin's Wall of Text as he claims.
Bruno -- Clueless townie or scum providing trivial info. C'mon Bruno, stop lurking!
Edwin -- Refuses to believe Roland is playing the same game as the rest of us. Either scum or he knows something and has a PR.
Null on the others.
##Vote Andre
Thats not my game anymore Brad, im not.mr tunneler anymore back off!
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#19 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:26:28
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Quote ( Brad Marshall @ March 20th 2021,02:21:20 ) Either scum or he knows something and has a PR.
Fishing for PRs
##vote Brad
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#20 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:27:28
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##Vote Ricardo
Going for tied votes.
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#21 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:29:13
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##unvote Brad
##vote Ric
Death to all self voters
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#22 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:30:54
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OMGUS
##Unvote
Sorry André
{b]##Vote André
posted 6 seconds before the deadline ended
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#23 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:30:58
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Quote ( Brad Marshall @ March 20th 2021,02:21:20 ) Great game guys! Reads so far:
Ricardo -- Lied about the Keeney comment but I read it as a reaction attempt. Tunneling Edwin HARD is classic Town Ric.
Keeney -- Null read so far. Not bothering to read Edwin is typical from him but he might be up to something here.
Ivan -- Scum. No way he misses Edwin's Wall of Text as he claims.
Bruno -- Clueless townie or scum providing trivial info. C'mon Bruno, stop lurking!
Edwin -- Refuses to believe Roland is playing the same game as the rest of us. Either scum or he knows something and has a PR.
Null on the others.
##Vote Andre
Trying too hard, smells of noob townie or a Mafia Cop (is that even a thing - well, if it wasn't before, it is now :P).
##Vote Brad
I really hope he gets voted off the island and we can like, oh my God, totes have some fun at last :P
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#24 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:32:56
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Quote ( Brad Marshall @ March 20th 2021,02:21:20 ) Ivan -- Scum. No way he misses Edwin's Wall of Text as he claims.
You're good in this game. I did read Edwin's full post. I just failed to see what discussion he was trying to bring. The game is what it is for so long man.
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#25 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:33:07
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Mafia Cop would be the absolute most useless PR in a game lol
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#26 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:33:19
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##unvote
##vote Beagles
CFD
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#27 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:33:41
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Quote ( Jonathan Beagles @ March 20th 2021,02:30:58 ) I really hope he gets voted off the island and we can like, oh my God, totes have some fun at last :P
I totes DO have fun!
##Unvote
##Vote The Beagles
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#28 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:34:36
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##Vote Beagles
Insta, stop posting.
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#29 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:39:42
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Quote ( Brad Marshall @ March 20th 2021,02:33:41 ) I totes DO have fun!
##Unvote
##Vote The Beagles
Prove it - in this case OMGUS stands for, Oh...Marshall Got Upset, Son!!! :P
Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ March 20th 2021,02:34:36 ) ##Vote Beagles
Insta, stop posting.
Twilight buddy - and I should know; I've been voted out of enough Mafia games lol :)
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#30 posted Mar 20th 2021, 02:46:33
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Read the rules, Beagles. No twilight in the Edwin Wall Posts that No One Understands the Point setup.
Just wait for the mods now.
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