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Forum topic poll
Should we change grid size or point system
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Topic: Grid size vs. points system |
22 replies
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#1 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:00:27
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The points system used by GPRO was originally used by F1 with a grid size of 20 cars - half the size of GPROs 40 car grid.
This means that where in F1 a driver had to be among the top 40% to score points, in GPRO they have to be among the top 20%. As a result, most managers have to resort to OBP strategies to try and score points for retention.
One possible solution, adapting the point system so it works better with a 40 car grid, is already being discussed in /forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=13180#scroll
as well as in /forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=30335#scroll.
But what about the other possible solution: Changing the grid size?
Cutting the group size in half, to 20 cars per group, would allow us to keep the old point system while bringing its use in line with the grid size it was intended for in F1.
The only thread I found about changing the group size is from 2013 and only talked about the effect on Rookie groups where half the managers doesn't race. Rookie groups are down to ~28 now, anyway, so things are different than in 2013.
I'm not quite sure about the technical limitations of the game engine, but if possible, we could even keep the rookie groups at 30 to account for inactive managers and still result in about 20 cars on the track.
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#2 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:07:59
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It would generate a problem with promotion/relegation. How many drivers will promote/relegate, when 20 are in the group? You would have to half the numbers, so only 2 per group would promote, and 4 would relegate. That works in Ama/Rookie. But do the numbers add up correctly in higher groups? Did you do the math in this subject?
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#3 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:10:22
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Phew, now we have 3 points change threads. Chaos. Pandamoneum. :D
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#4 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:13:12
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My view is that we should double up everything in GPRO and run 2 drivers as a constructor, and have a constructors championship in addition to the drivers one.
20 constructors per group, 40 cars, current F1 points system. Each car has it's own running costs, but race winnings are awarded per car to cover them, and sponsorships are doubled. This also lowers the difficulty gradient since it's easier to objectively test the impact of changes to fuel/tyres/wear/setup and will reward those who put in the effort to study such things without needing them to have as much of a maths background.
Not meaning to derail, but related to your question in a way!
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#5 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:13:22
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Quote ( Luke Frost @ August 13th 2021,11:10:22 ) Phew, now we have 3 points change threads. Chaos. Pandamoneum. :D
Pointmoneum
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#6 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:13:30
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Quote ( Luke Frost @ August 13th 2021,11:10:22 ) Phew, now we have 3 points change threads. Chaos. Pandamoneum. :D
More like 2 points change threads and one grid size thread :D
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#7 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:13:33
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I think that changing the point system would be far easier
Quote ( Luke Frost @ August 13th 2021,11:10:22 ) Phew, now we have 3 points change threads. Chaos. Pandamoneum. :D
Naaaa. This is about changing groups' size :D
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#8 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:14:40
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ August 13th 2021,11:13:12 ) My view is that we should double up everything in GPRO and run 2 drivers as a constructor, and have a constructors championship in addition to the drivers one.
20 constructors per group, 40 cars, current F1 points system. Each car has it's own running costs, but race winnings are awarded per car to cover them, and sponsorships are doubled. This also lowers the difficulty gradient since it's easier to objectively test the impact of changes to fuel/tyres/wear/setup and will reward those who put in the effort to study such things without needing them to have as much of a maths background.
Not meaning to derail, but related to your question in a way!
You would need twice the amount of groups we have as of now to accomodate that change, it would be chaos!
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#9 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:14:42
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I agree. Too many threads on the same topic. Chaos
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#10 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:14:48
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ August 13th 2021,11:13:12 ) My view is that we should double up everything in GPRO and run 2 drivers as a constructor, and have a constructors championship in addition to the drivers one.
20 constructors per group, 40 cars, current F1 points system. Each car has it's own running costs, but race winnings are awarded per car to cover them, and sponsorships are doubled. This also lowers the difficulty gradient since it's easier to objectively test the impact of changes to fuel/tyres/wear/setup and will reward those who put in the effort to study such things without needing them to have as much of a maths background.
Not meaning to derail, but related to your question in a way!
This sounds quite interesting. But it would probably mean a major overhaul of the entire game engine, so I doubt it's feasible. Maybe for GPRO2, lol.
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#11 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:24:01
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Quote ( Jens Jäschke @ August 13th 2021,11:14:48 ) But it would probably mean a major overhaul of the entire game engine,
Or just let each manager have a second account on the same computer, and make teams have max 2 managers, rename them "Constructors" and voila, everything is ready.
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Change the points to match the size relative to F1 20 car grid (doubled up to 16 point places)
This is the straight up Old F1 points system, scaled to Gpro, something that should have been in place from the start, since our grid is 40.... This change should be the easiest to accept, since its just an adjustment to the relative size.
Ideally I would like to see a doubled up current F1 system, rewarding 20 cars, as Jens´s previous suggestion offers.
But I could settle for the former, maintaining our current system, scaled up to relative size..
I really have a hard time seeing valid negatives, against that proposal.
Some seem to be against all change, regardless... weird attitude.
Who needs a tractor evolution,, lets keep using the Ox,,,,
it was good enough before and is good enough now!!! ;)
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ August 13th 2021,11:13:12 ) My view is that we should double up everything in GPRO and run 2 drivers as a constructor, and have a constructors championship in addition to the drivers one.
20 constructors per group, 40 cars, current F1 points system. Each car has it's own running costs, but race winnings are awarded per car to cover them, and sponsorships are doubled. This also lowers the difficulty gradient since it's easier to objectively test the impact of changes to fuel/tyres/wear/setup and will reward those who put in the effort to study such things without needing them to have as much of a maths background.
Not meaning to derail, but related to your question in a way!
I love it :)
Quote ( Tymoteusz Wojnarowski @ August 13th 2021,11:24:01 ) Or just let each manager have a second account on the same computer, and make teams have max 2 managers, rename them "Constructors" and voila, everything is ready.
Interesting. :)
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#14 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:31:28
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#15 posted Aug 13th 2021, 11:31:34
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ August 13th 2021,11:13:12 ) My view is that we should double up everything in GPRO and run 2 drivers as a constructor, and have a constructors championship in addition to the drivers one.
20 constructors per group, 40 cars, current F1 points system. Each car has it's own running costs, but race winnings are awarded per car to cover them, and sponsorships are doubled. This also lowers the difficulty gradient since it's easier to objectively test the impact of changes to fuel/tyres/wear/setup and will reward those who put in the effort to study such things without needing them to have as much of a maths background.
Not meaning to derail, but related to your question in a way!
How about promotion and relegation? If Top 2 teams (combined drver results) promote, bottom 10 have to demote. Half of the field. Isn't that too much? And if only one team promotes, woudn't that be to few? Getting back to old 1/4/16/64/256 structure would be needed to balance the promotioons/demotions again (2 teams promote / 8 demote)
PS. It won't change anything for point system. But it would be interesting to manage a team. Especially an unbalanced one, with 2 completely different drivers. And with team orders :-)
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#16 posted Aug 13th 2021, 13:19:54
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Quote ( Tymoteusz Wojnarowski @ August 13th 2021,11:07:59 ) It would generate a problem with promotion/relegation. How many drivers will promote/relegate, when 20 are in the group? You would have to half the numbers, so only 2 per group would promote, and 4 would relegate. That works in Ama/Rookie. But do the numbers add up correctly in higher groups? Did you do the math in this subject?
Good point. We'd either have a lot less promotions/relegations or we'd have to up the number of relegation spots while still reducing promotions per group slightly.
Rough idea:
Elite: 10 relegations, i.e. the lower half.
Master: Double number of groups (5 to 10). Group winner promotes. Lower half (10 per group) relegate.
Pro: Double number of groups (25 to 50). Top 2 promote, lowest 9 managers relegate.
Amateur: 150 groups (currently 80). Top 3 promote, lowest 5 relegate.
Rookie: 250 groups (currently 150 @ 28 managers/group). Top 3 promote.
It's not ideal and would make the fight for promoting and retaining in high groups quite a bit worse. On the other hand, that would probably lead to tighter and more interesting battles.
I still think revising the points system would be better, but it's an alternative.
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#17 posted Aug 13th 2021, 13:43:02
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There would be another option in the poll. That relegation be established globally and not in series. I saw some series in which with my time on the race I would have obtained a much better position. Or is that something else?
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#18 posted Aug 13th 2021, 14:51:33
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Quote ( Liviu Sandu @ August 13th 2021,13:43:02 ) There would be another option in the poll. That relegation be established globally and not in series. I saw some series in which with my time on the race I would have obtained a much better position. Or is that something else?
That's overcomplicating things a lot and in all honesty one could argue that in specific series the better competition led to better times overall.
What started with somewhat of a low effort suggestion got to create great discussions, but now it start to overcomplicate things in a number of matters(including multiple threads on the same topic).
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#19 posted Aug 13th 2021, 15:19:31
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I would like to have the points system reviewed (16 to 20 ilots score each race).
But if the main concern is OBP (and I for one really think it is), wouldn't it be simpler to score negative points for positions 33-40?
33-40: -1 point
Voilà.
Obviously, accidents at the start and tyre punctures wouldn't cause the manager to score negative points.
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#20 posted Aug 13th 2021, 15:44:39
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Quote ( Jaime Sinclair @ August 13th 2021,15:19:31 ) 33-40: -1 point
Voilà.
And then you made project drivers completely inviable. OBP is not a problem, it's just a matter of balancing it all i think to allow for more different approaches to the game.
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#21 posted Aug 13th 2021, 15:58:56
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Now is this the first thread about GPRO 2: The Constructors?
I'm undecided now, got a bit numb over time, would sure change both, but the "new AMA format" brought a little little live to my 5th AMA season, so could/would also vote just for group size change.
Less cars in the lower levels and... about the same on the top. Most seem to love or just be adapted to the 40 car race, so wouldn't mind that Elite got 2 extra cars.
Maybe:...
Elite 42 (trying to grab some 42 votes already ;) )
Master 40
Pro 38
Amateur 36
Until the poll close in December I'll have time to make a final decision. :)
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Quote ( André de Carvalho @ August 13th 2021,15:44:39 ) Quote ( Jaime Sinclair @ August 13th 2021,15:19:31 )
33-40: -1 point
Voilà.
And then you made project drivers completely inviable. OBP is not a problem, it's just a matter of balancing it all i think to allow for more different approaches to the game.
I'm not quite sure what you're talking about when you say "project driver". You can tell I'm fairly new to the game. I think you're referring to young drivers you hire for cheap in order to develop their skills?
If so, I don't think one would be unable to finish 32nd and up in any race when we're talking AMA.
I've been to AMA and it looked fairly simple to finish races 25th and up, with the same pilot I was provided with for my first race.
Obviously I can't say anything about the upper categories, but I don't think those should be suitable to really young drivers?
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#23 posted Aug 13th 2021, 16:21:13
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Try getting a very talented 19yo 70oa driver.
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