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Author Topic: Discussion about the state of the game 104 replies
Diogo Schwinn
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Old post #91 posted Jul 12th 2024, 19:44:50 Quote 
Quote ( Daryl Gee @ July 12th 2024,18:51:45 )
[

I think this is the least important issue that Geir raised


In fact, communication demonstrates that we are being heard and that they are concerned or not with our opinion as customers.
Shaun Thornton
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Old post #92 posted Jul 12th 2024, 19:46:44 Quote 
Quote ( Diogo Schwinn @ July 12th 2024,19:44:50 )


customers.


The key word here.
Krzysztof Woźniak
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Old post #93 posted Jul 12th 2024, 19:51:57 Quote 
Quote ( Stéphane Rombaux @ July 12th 2024,19:37:22 )

Like, for example, introducing a OA exceeding tax (both on signing or extending contract) instead of strictly enforcing OA.


Any form of luxury task to work would have to be absolutely massive.

Right now, out of 100 wealthiest managers, 74 are in Ama. SEVENTY FOUR. Top guy has 360 mln. If it won't be painful enough, they would simply get way better drivers, which will give them an even bigger advantage.

Hell, I would go even further with limits. Enforce car part levels in Rookie and Ama. Let's say level 4 and level 7 respectively. This way you put more emphasis on strategy and car setup rather than simply having more money than the rest of the field.

It's really disheartening, when you see someone having 150+ mln to their disposal at the start of the Ama season when you are a casual player and not some sort of power-player, who planned this for 7 seasons.


Kaur Sirel
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Old post #94 posted Jul 12th 2024, 19:55:48 Quote 
Quote ( Shaun Thornton @ July 12th 2024,19:46:44 )

Quote ( Diogo Schwinn @ July 12th 2024,19:44:50 )


customers.


The key word here.


Why listen to the customer?

There are so many of them and an informed customer is never useful.
Geir Pukk
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Old post #95 posted Jul 12th 2024, 19:58:37 Quote 
Quote ( Stéphane Rombaux @ July 12th 2024,19:37:22 )

Because better prepare your relegation than fail your retain

Never! I should be the 98th Pipi but I refuse!
Shaun Thornton
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Old post #96 posted Jul 12th 2024, 20:00:00 Quote 
Quote ( Kaur Sirel @ July 12th 2024,19:55:48 )



Why listen to the customer?




They pay the wages.
Stéphane Rombaux
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Old post #97 posted Jul 12th 2024, 21:39:21 (last edited Jul 12th 2024, 21:45:57 by Stéphane Rombaux) Quote 
Quote ( Geir Pukk @ July 12th 2024,19:58:37 )

Quote ( Stéphane Rombaux @ July 12th 2024,19:37:22 )

Because better prepare your relegation than fail your retain

Never! I should be the 98th Pipi but I refuse!


Instead you chose the Conti life
Best of luck with the 7 wet races this season, we're on the same ship xD

Quote ( Krzysztof Woźniak @ July 12th 2024,19:51:57 )

Quote ( Stéphane Rombaux @ July 12th 2024,19:37:22 )

Like, for example, introducing a OA exceeding tax (both on signing or extending contract) instead of strictly enforcing OA.


Any form of luxury task to work would have to be absolutely massive.



Oh, I've always been in favor of adding a second tier of tax above 100M or 150M in Ama.
A brutal "sandbagging" tax there. Like taking 50% or 60% above 150M

So I would make sure to treat Ama cash printing issue first :P
By the way. You're speaking about part levels. That simply would be ineffective since the main reason why those who sandbag in Amateur can make so much cash is because they never ever come close to using high level parts to be able to perform.
I can't remember myself when I used a lvl 8 part the last time and I've been in Pro and Master for a while.
Andreas Ramann
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Old post #98 posted Jul 12th 2024, 22:46:56 Quote 
Quote ( Andrea Squizzato @ July 11th 2024,19:21:49 )

3) we have said it many times, but the random factor is a problem (explaining below)

In regards of points 2 and 3, I've seen quite many people going angry and even quit the game because of factors that cannot be controlled. The bad thing is that this hits normally very experienced players that reach very high levels in the game, probably because the more you play, the more you understand how much planning is important, the more you understand that you don't have control over those things.


About that...

https://prnt.sc/_2hJA9QL11VF

https://imgflip.com/i/8wrf48
George Slater4
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Old post #99 posted Jul 13th 2024, 06:35:43 Quote 
I only had one new negotiation after the charisma change came into effect before retiring, so I can't really judge the change as a player. However, as an observer who has seen what some of these new negotiations look like: it does seem a bit much.

There are two other sponsor changes I think would be good for the game:

1) Reinstate sponsor warnings for missed races. This was removed (understandably so) during the pandemic, but as a side effect of this it encourages the idea of tactically missing races. Either to prevent sponsor warnings from bad results or not picking tyres R1 as we have seen. Not racing in a racing management game seems to me against the spirit of it.

2) In the case of randoms, base sponsor negotiation progress off of the position held before the random. A similar change was already made in the case of sponsor warnings, and it almost eliminates the possibility of losing a sponsor negotiation because of a random and the massive financial ramifications of that.

Otherwise, I think that the system of negotiating with sponsors is a good one. Anxiety inducing sure, but some mechanics should be that way. How effectively sponsors are managed is also one of the biggest differentiators between managers in the game, not just between managers in different teams but between teammates as well; and one where multiple different approaches to it can have success.

As for the topic of sponsor collusion, why is it unfair that teamwork and team performance creates (real or perceived) advantages when teams are built into the structure of the game? I say this as someone who went from having no teammates in elite to 10+ teammates; that comes about not only from the hard work of individual managers but also fostering a team environment that supports mutual improvement. In any case, probably the main sponsor benefit from having multiple teammates is simply reducing the pool of potential competitors by coordinating who will negotiate with what sponsor. I see this as similar to the benefits of coordinating race strategy to minimize conflict (in which case the game even encourages this by having a 'choose teammate to let past' setting).
Keri Lovell
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Old post #100 posted Jul 13th 2024, 09:09:49 Quote 
George, surely you can see though that the ability to collude over sponsors leaves anyone new to Elite at a severe disadvantage?

I liken it to the rugby situtation in England, the Premiership is locked off now, no promotions, no relegations and the teams who win the championship and should be rightly promoted to the Premiership, go nowhere. It's demotivating at best and against the spirit of competition at worst.

The drop off in the standard of the championship now is massive, it's kind of a dead end situation.

I absolutely admire anyone that has gotten to Elite and stayed there, it takes planning, skill and dedication, and they should be rightly looked up to.

But the only way you are really staying there for the long term (apart from a few outliers) is if you then join a team where you can take advantage of this massive financial advantage.

Therefore a system like that should just never be in place if you want to promote a free flowing, meritocracy based game which I think is the only way the game stays open to all comers.

The minute a competition of any kind, in any format has fairness in question, it is no longer a competition. In the same way the members would absolutely lose their minds if it became a pay to win, which isn't isn't of course, the realities of being able to 'hoard' sponsors if you are in the correct team is not much different to that mechanic.




George Slater4
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Old post #101 posted Jul 13th 2024, 09:54:32 (last edited Jul 13th 2024, 09:55:51 by George Slater) Quote 
Quote ( Keri Lovell @ July 13th 2024,09:09:49 )

George, surely you can see though that the ability to collude over sponsors leaves anyone new to Elite at a severe disadvantage?


I think the advantage from playing team games on sponsors has been significantly overstated in this thread as an answer to why elite is dominated by a few teams. In reality, understanding of game mechanics and effective planning tools have far more to do with the successes of managers from these teams. That these top teams then have the most recruiting power only makes their presence in elite even more pronounced.

Being in a team with less knowledge so to speak (or no team) does put a manager in a disadvantage at any tier. But that is an intrinsic part of the game design.
André de Carvalho
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Old post #102 posted Jul 13th 2024, 09:55:52 Quote 
Quote ( Keri Lovell @ July 13th 2024,09:09:49 )

George, surely you can see though that the ability to collude over sponsors leaves anyone new to Elite at a severe disadvantage?


My name isnt George, but i feel like this is going way beyond any reality around, so i want to get in the middle, if you allow a threesome, mister Lover :)

Cartels are a made up problem.

I had the experience of being a new elite without any teammate, and now i can say im a half experienced eliter who is still alone. And i think this issue is.mostly raised by people who dont really get the dinamics of things around here.
Its not my intention to sound arrogant with saying this, for exemple i understood a few seasons ago that i need to get much better at sponsors tracking if i want to up my game around.

Pardon my honesty, but this whole cartel thing sounds more like being naive in the best sense,.or just a lame excuse in the worst. Life surely isnt so easy around here

But we can get rid of avg progress and just show individual progress from now on. That will kill all those nasty cartels, be them mexican, italian, sick puppies or catlike.

Im pretty sure no one will notice any difference.

Made up issues leads to made up solutions.

Diogo Abdalla
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Old post #103 posted Jul 13th 2024, 13:32:28 Quote 
The "cartel" thing hijacked the discussion here but the original post wanst about it at all. And yet anyone made a real case on why would teams (and apparently, only some teams) give such a big advantage on the sponsor game

The only way teammates on the same group can help each other on sponsors is joining negotiations to help hide progress.

That is somewhat useful, for sure. But is of a very limited use if the other guys on the sponsor expect this to happen (as anyone with experience on master and elite should)

I think the problem with sponsor is that everything about them, both getting them and keeping them, is tied to race results, so the people already on top will have a growing advantage over the people struggling behind. And thats true specially in elite

This always been the case, but now sponsor income became more essential than ever, and so the gap became wider and harder to overcome
Keri Lovell
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Old post #104 posted Jul 14th 2024, 00:09:12 Quote 
Well explained gents, and appreciate the honest debate
David Rolleston1
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Old post #105 posted yesterday at 11:06:07 Quote 
Excellent discussion to start Geir - well done.

Ultimately it would be good to understand El Presidents rationale behind the changes we have seen recently. E.g. were the increases in tyre pricing to offset the season 94 changes around charisma and impact on sponsors? Or was it some other reason to maybe make it harder for people to maintain a sustained period of time in Elite for example.

I feel that the changes we have seen relating to track PHA and driver charisma were effectively fixes, as they weren't working as originally intended. Took some time for sure, but good to see.

It is ultimately a financial management game and IMO the balance is not quite right in its current state. With the price of tyres now you absolutely need a nice stream of sponsor income coming in. To get sponsors you need performance on track, regardless of how many team mates are in a group with you. If you are not delivering on track then you will not win sponsor battles with others.

TWO potential solutions, to allow for a slight decrease in the price of rubber! (that I would hope would be fairly straight forward to implement?)

1) Double the influence facilities have on CCP and conversion through to PHA, whilst slightly reducing the rate at which they and staff skills (when greater than 41) deteriorate.

Presently the cost/benefit ratio is completely out of kilter for this part of the game. But if managers could see a greater influence/benefit it would be something that money can be directed at. Likewise an increase in facilities allows staff skills to be trained to a higher level and who knows, maybe one day we can see the return of sub 10 second pit stops.

In fact, would be nice if within the statistics page there was an option to see 'fastest pit times' and when they were.

2) Dump an extra 40 sponsors into every group. Even though your commercial level now influences the number of sponsors a manager can negotiate with at one time, the competition has never been more fierce to obtain and sign sponsors. Making more available would allow those mid pack and low race runners to at least stand a greater chance of grabbing something.

There are many more ideas that I could dump in here, but for simplicity the above are the two things I'd consider doing in the short term.




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