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Θέμα: How to make Elite a better place? |
475 απαντήσεις
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,14:45:21 )
ed: And I am certain Carlos wasn't complaining about Elite sponsors when he wrote his post, but whatever.
Was about all groups . What happenned to me into Master and Pro groups , i´m sure happpened with all of us , in ALL groups . Don´t ask to leandro Sereno or Zdenek or Edvinas , ask to guys with results between 15th and 25th place . They lost Sponsors too with 75 .. 85% . I´m can bet 50 GPRO credits !! I´m not tryng to help ME ... but trying to do a better game for Us , believe in me please .
I have another idea about sponsor , but ... forget . Here´s not the place ...
:)
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Quote ( Carlos Vieira Jr @ January 6th 2012,14:56:43 )
Was about all groups . What happenned to me into Master and Pro groups , i´m sure happpened with all of us , in ALL groups . Don´t ask to leandro Sereno or Zdenek or Edvinas , ask to guys with results between 15th and 25th place . They lost Sponsors too with 75 .. 85% . I´m can bet 50 GPRO credits !! I´m not tryng to help ME ... but trying to do a better game for Us , believe in me please .
I am sure it has happened to all of us. I remember I lost ~ 90 million by losing 2 close sponsor races during S14 and S15 (I am still ticked off about it a bit). But I can accept that it was because of my own fault in negotiating strategy... you should learn from this rather than seeking to change it.
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Quote ( Carlos Vieira Jr @ January 6th 2012,14:56:43 )
I´m not tryng to help ME ... but trying to do a better game for Us , believe in me please .
That is correct...the ones that need the income the most are the ones that most prone to get caught in the trap; they have to take risks to get good sponsors because their progress is so low that the money offered by the sponsors barely covers the cost of having a commercial facility in the first place.
Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,14:56:37 )
I raced there only for 1 full season. It would have been highly unlikely that I get more than 1 during that time in any case.
Maybe, but I'd hazard a guess that you lost 2 Master sponsors along the way, and that that trend would have continued until you fell into the void that is relegation. That is what tr thread is all about...bridging the gap so that Master promoters don't all fall into the same cycle...and it is the same cycle.
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Quote ( Tomasz Kaminski @ January 6th 2012,12:07:44 )
Sponsors is main problem. When I was first time in elite every season I had less and less money. And every start of the season was huge problem because motivated newcomers. I hadnt money for testing for new parts. And finally I relegate
if you are struggling in elite midfield with low money and sponsors, and still keep choosing the most expensive tyres.. maybe you should ask yourself if this a failure in the system or just extremely bad management?
but the xp issue is clearly a massive failure in the system, completely out of control and that makes every newcomer to fail no matter how good they are. Just like Leandro said:
Quote ( Tomasz Kaminski @ January 6th 2012,12:07:44 )
The issue on the exp change is not how to balance managers, but how to balance DRIVERS!
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,14:56:37 )
You should have the nous to find the right sponsor at the right time which is what getting sponsors is about in mid-table.
I would agree with you that there is no problem in any group except elite. However...Quote ( Sion Francis @ January 6th 2012,04:22:53 )
promoting managers in theory need a helping hand financially to establish themselves at the next level and sponsors can give them that. This works well in all non-elite groups. But because the same advantages are given to frontrunners in elite, it serves only to widen the gap between themselves and the chasing pack. From a gameplay perspective it's illogical.
Would you disagree with that?
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Quote ( Heidi Aareskoski  @ January 6th 2012,15:03:35 ) but the xp issue is clearly a massive failure in the system, completely out of control and that makes every newcomer to fail no matter how good they are.
Agreed... That should be fixed soon!
I think Elite is the worst group of the game because of this!! If your driver's experience is a bit low, you will fail in most(or all) of cases.
Just old and experienced drivers can fight for a win or for the champ making most of newcomers go down and fail retainning!
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Quote ( Ramón Lopez @ January 6th 2012,15:07:14 )
Just old and experienced drivers can fight for a win or for the champ making most of newcomers go down and fail retainning!
I didn´t run into Elite yet , but igree with this ! Thats very Clear .
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Quote ( Carlos Vieira Jr @ January 6th 2012,15:20:25 )
I didn´t run into Elite yet , but igree with this ! Thats very Clear .
Yep... But this is not the only problem, bad results->no money for sponsors and it's hard to fight with people that gets some money from sponsors!! They can use more risks, test more... ...!
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Quote ( Heidi Aareskoski @ January 6th 2012,15:03:35 ) if you are struggling in elite midfield with low money and sponsors, and still keep choosing the most expensive tyres.. maybe you should ask yourself if this a failure in the system or just extremely bad management?
Ok,how many managers with BY survived every season? 1-2? Its about fighting with tyres you dont have money for,or go back to master straight away. Its not poor management,its about where you can be -in top 40 of the game even in lower places or keep going back and advancing. Its easy to do 2seasons in master - relegate - 2 season- relegate etc.
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Quote ( Michael Winkley @ January 6th 2012,15:03:03 )
Maybe, but I'd hazard a guess that you lost 2 Master sponsors along the way, and that that trend would have continued until you fell into the void that is relegation. That is what tr thread is all about...bridging the gap so that Master promoters don't all fall into the same cycle...and it is the same cycle.
Quote ( Sion Francis @ January 6th 2012,15:05:17 )
promoting managers in theory need a helping hand financially to establish themselves at the next level and sponsors can give them that. This works well in all non-elite groups. But because the same advantages are given to frontrunners in elite, it serves only to widen the gap between themselves and the chasing pack. From a gameplay perspective it's illogical.
Would you disagree with that?
Don't think I haven't noticed this problem in my financial planning in my time in Elite. I had calculated that I would have gone bankrupt after 3 seasons had I kept managing like I did in my first season there... But you are trying to make it sound like there has to be a change in sponsor system to overcome this problem. I don't think so.
(I agree, driver xp is broken though and needs to change)
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Quote ( Sion Francis @ January 6th 2012,04:22:53 )
You say that but there is no denying that elite midfielders need a hand in sponsorship negotiations. I mean, sponsorship negotiation in elite is something that needs to be experienced just to understand how ridiculously difficult it is...it unquestionably gives huge advantages to the group's frontrunners but, unlike in every other group, it's not the frontrunners who need the advantage.
i.e. promoting managers in theory need a helping hand financially to establish themselves at the next level and sponsors can give them that. This works well in all non-elite groups. But because the same advantages are given to frontrunners in elite, it serves only to widen the gap between themselves and the chasing pack. From a gameplay perspective it's illogical.
100% Agree!
in other classes, the four strongest promote, creating four seats in the front all seasons, that´s why the best players can progress.
But the strongest elite managers are not going anywhere .... and still continue to grow stronger.
Even creating a limit to exp ...... I'm afraid that is not enough.
After a certain amount of experience it should start to be harmful.
for example:
exp. = 300. max. performance
between 300-350 does not affect the progress
> 350 begins to lose progress
That values are just an example....
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Quote ( Nuno Vicente @ January 6th 2012,15:32:43 )
exp. = 300. max. performance
between 300-350 does not affect the progress
> 350 begins to lose progress
That values are just an example....
I think about something same.
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Quote ( Tomasz Kaminski @ January 6th 2012,15:22:58 )
Ok,how many managers with BY survived every season? 1-2? Its about fighting with tyres you dont have money for,or go back to master straight away. Its not poor management,its about where you can be -in top 40 of the game even in lower places or keep going back and advancing. Its easy to do 2seasons in master - relegate - 2 season- relegate etc.
The most expensive tyres are meant for managers who are fighting for the championship or who have very high sponsor incomes. Others should not choose them. And if there are too many idiots who make this mistake, it may become better choice to relegate and come back stonger. But anyway its not a failure in the system.
But i agree that sponsor incomes are way too high for top managers. 50% deduction would be fine.
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This is just an example to illustrate a point made by one of the big guns previously (either Justinas or Leandro I think)
@ 100CT (everything else being equal other than experience)
0 EXP ~ 950%
100 EXP ~ 885%
200 EXP ~ 815%
300 EXP ~ 750%
400 EXP ~ 680%
450 EXP ~ 645%
Assuming that the part in question was a L7 Engine, your typical Master promoter would need to spend in excess of $20m a season extra just on his Engine replacements, so circa $75m a season, just to be able to compete at the same CT level as the front guys.
However, with the fact that EXP also affects pace, the front guys with the high EXP drivers would always come out on top by a very long way in any event. They then get the pick of all the best sponsors, which exacerbates the financial differential even further.
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Quote ( Nuno Vicente @ January 6th 2012,15:32:43 )
for example:
exp. = 300. max. performance
between 300-350 does not affect the progress
> 350 begins to lose progress
That values are just an example....
I have in my mind 250 for max performance. Between 250-300 does not affect the speed and >300 begins to lose speed.
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Quote ( Heidi Aareskoski @ January 6th 2012,15:41:59 ) But i agree that sponsor incomes are way too high for top managers. 50% deduction would be fine.
but only in elite then I suppose
and about this:
Quote ( Carlos Vieira Jr @ January 6th 2012,14:56:43 )
Was about all groups . What happenned to me into Master and Pro groups , i´m sure happpened with all of us , in ALL groups . Don´t ask to leandro Sereno or Zdenek or Edvinas , ask to guys with results between 15th and 25th place . They lost Sponsors too with 75 .. 85% .
in all my seasons since my reset I lost one in this case, not more...just one over 12 seasons time...I don't see that as a big problem at all.
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,15:32:00 )
Don't think I haven't noticed this problem in my financial planning in my time in Elite. I had calculated that I would have gone bankrupt after 3 seasons had I kept managing like I did in my first season there... But you are trying to make it sound like there has to be a change in sponsor system to overcome this problem. I don't think so.
(I agree, driver xp is broken though and needs to change)
The sponsor system being changed by itself wouldn't serve to overcome the problem. What I am saying is that both need to be overhauled...though I do agree that the EXP issue needs to be addressed first because this would initself move the balance of power in regards to sponsors back in the direction that we need it to be going.
Maybe it isn't as broken as I intimate towards, but we'll only really find that out after the EXP issues have been dealt with; maybe sorted EXP out might not go for enough in redressing the balance...maybe it will go too far.
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Quote ( Paulo Pinto @ January 6th 2012,15:47:59 )
I have in my mind 250 for max performance. Between 250-300 does not affect the speed and >300 begins to lose speed.
I don't believe a max performance or experience peak is either practical or realistic. I'm happy with a non-increase in pure speed beyond a certain point though (250 being most logical).
Going back to what Daneks was saying. I believe a better approach to what you're suggesting If drivers had a stat such as "natural fitness", then a driver with 1 out of 250 would start losing concentration, stamina, and maybe gaining weight somewhere between 28-30, whereas a driver of 250 out of 250 would start dropping at about 34-36. The stat would be like talent. Never changes.
It is basically changing the rigid 35 years old rule to something a little more dynamic.
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 6th 2012,16:01:52 )
I don't believe a max performance or experience peak is either practical or realistic. I'm happy with a non-increase in pure speed beyond a certain point though (250 being most logical).
Going back to what Daneks was saying. I believe a better approach to what you're suggesting If drivers had a stat such as "natural fitness", then a driver with 1 out of 250 would start losing concentration, stamina, and maybe gaining weight somewhere between 28-30, whereas a driver of 250 out of 250 would start dropping at about 34-36. The stat would be like talent. Never changes.
It is basically changing the rigid 35 years old rule to something a little more dynamic.
I like this.
But I don't see anything like this being introduced due to issues in integrating another stat into driver OA. If the new stat was outside OA calculation, may be it is a possibility but otherwise, it would be very difficult to introduce it.
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,16:04:42 )
But I don't see anything like this being introduced due to issues in integrating another stat into driver OA. If the new stat was outside OA calculation, may be it is a possibility but otherwise, it would be very difficult to introduce it.
I disagree, I see it as an opportunity to maybe revisit the OA formula, and balance it a little more akin to what is used for speed calculation now.
OA Calc has never changed since Season 1 (I believe, correct me if wrong). But there was a big change in Season 7 first of all that affected a particular driver stat, then we had the experience fix in S19.
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 6th 2012,16:01:52 )
"natural fitness"
The concept is fine, just that in the type of game where it already exists is where that particular component is more readily disposable, i.e. a football player that can very easily be replaced with a broadly similar yet younger player...I don't think that it would work as well here in a game where the talent pool of drivers is that much more limited and drivers are less easily disposed with.
It would also require a fundamental change in the way that driver trainings work IMO, otherwise there'd be little benefit in a long term driver training plan if your driver only ever reached his peak in his late 20's...not enough time to develop his stats to be as good as a later peaking driver.
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Quote ( Paulo Pinto @ January 6th 2012,15:47:59 )
I have in my mind 250 for max performance. Between 250-300 does not affect the speed and >300 begins to lose speed.
I think about that first....but because my driver is near that perfect value.....:)
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Quote ( Nuno Vicente @ January 6th 2012,16:12:32 )
I think about that first....but because my driver is near that perfect value.....:)
heheheh
Ok, let's say 275... It's ok for you? :P
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 6th 2012,16:07:09 )
I disagree, I see it as an opportunity to maybe revisit the OA formula, and balance it a little more akin to what is used for speed calculation now.
OA Calc has never changed since Season 1 (I believe, correct me if wrong). But there was a big change in Season 7 first of all that affected a particular driver stat, then we had the experience fix in S19.
But none of them actually changed OA stat calculation.
Messing up with OA calculation is something you do not want to do. Exp bug fixed screwed a lot of people and if it is changed back, some are bound to feel unhappy and may complain how it messed up their plans. But that will be nothing compared to what will happen if you change OA formula. You cannot begin to estimate how many people's plans may be wrecked.
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1. Simple slowing down the exp after ranges is the easiest way of implementing I guess....you'll still have some seasons till the current high exp drivers retire, but then afterwards...it should become more equal overall.
2. Give elite less sponsor money...
long time ago I played a game and you could reach the top but after 3-4 seasons you always had to go down back to a lower level to get back up again afterwards. As simple you lost a driver and couldn't compete with a replacement immediate. Much more people had a chance/possibility if they put the effort in it to get a "title" in the top class. It would give the top class more dynamics instead of a closed group :)
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Wouldn't a peaking system of drivers also make long term training quite redundant, in that it would be very tough to promote with a young driver who is quite some time away from his peak?
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,16:16:38 )
But that will be nothing compared to what will happen if you change OA formula. You cannot begin to estimate how many people's plans may be wrecked.
That is why a grace period should be in operation whereby, for all purposes OA related, both equations should be run side-by-side for around 2 seasons; drivers that have OAs that fall either side of the limit would be able extend contracts and not be released upon relegation.
I very much doubt that it would take more than 20 minutes for someone to figure out what the new OA equation was; driver market spider to grab the data, then solve for 9 variables. (I doubt that any major changes would get made in any event).
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Quote ( Chinmay Dhopate @ January 6th 2012,16:16:38 )
You cannot begin to estimate how many people's plans may be wrecked.
I somehow think that is a self defeatist attitude. If everything begins and ends with that rationale then nothing will ever be changed or fixed because somebody somewhere will get screwed.
Unfortunately we can't think like that. Give 1-3 seasons warning and change whatever needs to change, if you are affected, sorry. But for every person that will be affected negatively by a change, there are also x amount of people currently "suffering" because the system is screwing them. And worse, even if you are benefiting now, that is not a permanent condition, if you are outside of elite, eventually you will go through all of this as well.
My point is that we need to get past that a bit, there are things that are far more important to get right then it is to worry about somebody's plan. If the manager is good enough, adapting is not a problem, and it is part of playing the a game, to adapt to new circumstances when they appear.
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Quote ( Leonardo Bittencourt @ January 6th 2012,17:07:11 )
If the manager is good enough, adapting is not a problem, and it is part of playing the a game, to adapt to new circumstances when they appear.
Indeed. It is often said that the best managers in the game are the best managers because they are able to successfully adapt in a prompt fashion. Fixing the EXP issue goes to the heart of these managers, and since most of us acknowledge that they are the best, how about giving them another opportunity just to reiterate that point to us?
These players also broadly support the need for a change, so let us see them adapt and beat us again regardless. I'm sure that they'll enjoy the challenge, otherwise why even support the idea.
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Quote ( Heidi Aareskoski @ January 6th 2012,15:41:59 ) The most expensive tyres are meant for managers who are fighting for the championship or who have very high sponsor incomes. Others should not choose them. And if there are too many idiots who make this mistake, it may become better choice to relegate and come back stonger. But anyway its not a failure in the system.
Here is the problem....
At first season at Elite you will have the money for expensive tyres....and even with your master driver it will be easy to get a point at your first race at Elite, the problem is after first seasons, when you should have other tyres to balance your money, but if you do that ....you would get relegated.
With all respect i have for you....i would like to see you with your master driver until you get another trophy or relegation.
But i guess you will have no problem with the next trophy because you will get an Elite driver who will help you to get it?!
Justinas is a great manager....and before he had any trophy i had put im at the best 10 managers of the game.......but if he didn´t get an Elite driver (the best actually) he couldn´t done what he did.
Same goes for you.
At the moment Elite champ´s depends only about how good Elite drivers are on the market when you promote from master!
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