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Θέμα: How to make Elite a better place? |
475 απαντήσεις
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I know this goes against the tone of the conversation thus far, but I often wonder what the game would be like if you couldn’t extend driver contracts, and training was cheaper than it is now.
The non-extension rule certainly does the TD market no harm.
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 4th 2012,12:43:29 )
I know this goes against the tone of the conversation thus far, but I often wonder what the game would be like if you couldn’t extend driver contracts, and training was cheaper than it is now.
The non-extension rule certainly does the TD market no harm.
i think it would be a better game people would have to go for it i would also like to see more options for strategies.
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I wouldn't like that at all. I prefer a game wich enforces driver training than one that doesn't.
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I don't think it will be good...contracts is something people have always been playing along and if that is taken away, a major part of the fun is taken away..
Quote ( Mark Webster @ January 4th 2012,12:43:29 )
training was cheaper than it is now.
well tbh even if it is cheaper, every1 will end up saving more or less the same than they do now (depending on the training program)..
it could be fun managing it from that angle too though
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Well, I doubt this topic will amount to anything due to the large amount of different suggestions, but I do enjoy a good brainstorming session :)
Increasing the gap is one way to go, personally I think our pyramid structure is getting too wide and not high enough, instead of the new planned system of increasing the groups fivefold from tier to tier I would much rather have us stay at 4, or even go back to 3 and just add a new tier between Elite and Master with an OA cap of ~185-200. Especially as the number of managers is not increasing very fast.
It would not hurt the current Elite old timers, but it would help get much more training done on your driver before promoting to elite.
To be honest I have not been in elite for a very long time and I am not up to date with the current problems. So I cant comment on the experience problem, I know it exists, but that is about it, sponsors however was one of the main reasons I left Elite (that and I baerly knew what I was doing at the time).
You could have up to 5 mil per race income difference due to sponsors. Some times I even wondered if it would be better if we completely removed sponsors all together. In the lower groups the sponsors help you cope after a promotion (that is if you manage to hold on to them), as if you are in top 4 in your group you probably managed to sign a couple in that season. So in that sense the sponsors work well. Except you dont promote from Elite. You get your top of the line sponsors season after season after season. Constantly giving you ~3 Million per race advantage over the middle of the pack plus the money for the better finish.
How to fix this? The tyres were a good attempt, but they didnt quite work, they just ended up increasing the race gap between the top and the rest (that is how it appears to me, although we did not have tyre suppliers the last time I was in Elite). Perhaps we could just lower the amount of money the sponsors pay you? Or make them much more ruthless for the top in Elite. (the best sponsors would expect you to finish top 3 all the time, or they get a hissy fit and go away). In other words I think sponsors need tweaking a bit, but I am not sure what would help.
Just thinking outloud now:
If we added one new tier and went back to 3*x groups in a tier with 6 tiers we would have 364 groups. which is up from 341 from the 4*x groups per tier with 5 tiers. Would make promoting in general easier and if we run out of room wouldnt be too hard to start adding new rookie groups and slowly start adopting the 4*x system again.
I guess "a bit" of a problem would be the initial promotion confusion (as we did when we went on the 4*x system). so 1xE, 3xnew tier, 9xMaster, 27*Pro, 81*Amateur, 243*Rookie.
Another possible problem would be those unwanted promotions as it would mean 5 people promote from a group, but that is part of the strategy. I have been keeping an eye on many promotees and have often seen people who promoted as 4.th in their group far outperform those who promoted as group winners.
For a while now the game seems to be going in the oppsite direction it should be going in my opinion. These days I dont even think there is any reason for me to say anything on the forum about the game, everything seems to get ignored. I know the admins have their own plans and are unlikely to change anything because some managers would prefer it in one way or another. In the old days I just blurted out and idea and in 20 minutes someone explained it was not a good one (always politely) or it would get implemented by the next race.
EDIT: Oh and the worst sponsor I have ever had in Elite: 123 000 per race for 10 races, It was actually much cheaper not bother with sponsors at all (although I usually did finish outside of top 30). That was season ~10ish so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it. Do not read too much into this EDIT rant, it was years ago and it still bothers me, but I have learned a few lessons since then.
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a new tier introduction is an interesting concept for sure...
the only flaw in that is winning the championship then may be simpler
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To be honest lately admins are doing a great job and implementing a lot of suggestions that were laying there since forever, so I don't think it's fair to say that nothing will ever change or that suggestions are never taken into consideration
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Harri I like the way you think.
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The best solution has been discussed for quite a long time in Elite thread: Decrease importance of driver experience! Doing that everything else will be more or less balanced. Its notorius exp is too powerful compared to all other stats, and that wasnt since ever... It changed with bug fix at S17 if I'm not wrong.
How can a fresh Master promoter with good car and a "nice" driver (meaning high talent, aggress, stamina) have a chance against a driver with 400+ experience? Of couse, those guys will be out of top10, meaning in a long term lack of money, sponsors, etc, and finally relegation.
Now the solution:
Limit experience impact on pace to 250 pts. Every point above that wont improve driver speed, but just help in other areas that experience also helps (tyre wear, parts wear, fuel consumption). This way, Elite will be well balanced. But observe that experienced managers still have advantages like better car level, what can be slowing catched by fresh promoters.
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the debate is geting better and better.
but so far, no post from admins... why?
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Quote ( Leandro Sereno  @ January 4th 2012,13:19:40 ) Limit experience impact on pace to 250 pts. Every point above that wont improve driver speed, but just help in other areas that experience also helps (tyre wear, parts wear, fuel consumption). This way, Elite will be well balanced. But observe that experienced managers still have advantages like better car level, what can be slowing catched by fresh promoters.
this is a fair point which actually is unbiased...this way top elites will be top for sure but this wont hamper the chances of newer manager to retain in elite...totally liked it
Quote ( Fabricio Ramos @ January 4th 2012,13:20:02 )
but so far, no post from admins
well maybe they are busy :)
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Quote ( Leandro Sereno @ January 4th 2012,13:19:40 ) Now the solution:
Limit experience impact on pace to 250 pts. Every point above that wont improve driver speed, but just help in other areas that experience also helps (tyre wear, parts wear, fuel consumption). This way, Elite will be well balanced. But observe that experienced managers still have advantages like better car level, what can be slowing catched by fresh promoters.
I'd like to see this, combined with a completely new sponsor system. :)
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Quote ( Leandro Sereno @ January 4th 2012,13:19:40 ) Now the solution:
Limit experience impact on pace to 250 pts. Every point above that wont improve driver speed, but just help in other areas that experience also helps (tyre wear, parts wear, fuel consumption). This way, Elite will be well balanced. But observe that experienced managers still have advantages like better car level, what can be slowing catched by fresh promoters.
Total support for this also, in combination with what Mikko posted (Post #58) about sponsors above. 2 very easy to implement solutions that have real potential to improve the game.
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I dont know if sponsor $ amount decrease can be a good idea because money lack is the main problem for most people.
Don't know if the situation would improve enough if front runners also had less money = worse tyres. I think they still would be better because of better staff, drivers. Would take looong time for things to move.
Now people even with Badyears struggle quite a bit and what would be if their sponsor $ are even lowered (but progress increased?).
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Quote ( Leandro Sereno @ January 4th 2012,13:19:40 ) The best solution has been discussed for quite a long time in Elite thread: Decrease importance of driver experience!
I fully support this idea. It's a joke that this driver can get podiums and even a win:
Overall: 236
Concentration: 250
Talent: 214
Aggressiveness: 76
Experience: 424
Technical insight: 233
Stamina: 227
Charisma: 211
Motivation: 249
Reputation: 30
Weight(kg): 72
Age: 34
while such driver isn't capable to finish in TOP12...
Overall: 210
Concentration: 240
Talent: 240
Aggressiveness: 153
Experience: 255
Technical insight: 227
Stamina: 233
Charisma: 115
Motivation: 0
Reputation: 27
Weight(kg): 57
Age: 28
At the moment experience is everything, which is totally wrong and unfair thing.
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Quote ( Harri Pakosta @ January 4th 2012,13:03:22 )
personally I think our pyramid structure is getting too wide and not high enough
this
cannot really say anything about Elite, but generally with the *5 system I am afraid it will become tougher to prepare for group above due to increased competition for promotion spots, and there will be even more those ''+5 seasons in same group and then quit'' people. Ofc you can claim that if you're fast enough you promote anyways, but I don't really like the idea of having more and more one-group-veterans...
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the point Leandro raised is totally fair....if that implemented it might help easy the gap a little
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Justinas' suggestions are admirable since he is a triple Elite champion and is taking side of Master aspirants.
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ January 4th 2012,06:36:17 )
increase sponsor progress by ~50%
decrease sponsor money by ~50%
I don't think this would actually help. Let's take an example:
A manager has 2 sponsors under current rules who pay 2mln each. 4mln in total.
If you increase negotiation progress by 50%, the manager would be able to get 3 sponsors during the same time, he managed to get 2 sponsors under current rules.
THOUGH, the manager would get not 2mln from each sponsor but only 1mln. In total 3mln. So what this implementation would change?
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ January 4th 2012,13:44:32 )
I fully support this idea. It's a joke that this driver can get podiums and even a win:
Overall: 236
Concentration: 250
Talent: 214
Aggressiveness: 76
Experience: 424
Technical insight: 233
Stamina: 227
Charisma: 211
Motivation: 249
Reputation: 30
Weight(kg): 72
Age: 34
Rimantas, I think you meant Z's old driver not Uzi's
Overall: 191
Concentration: 245
Talent: 121
Aggressiveness: 91
Experience: 453
Technical insight: 191
Stamina: 146
Charisma: 132
Motivation: 237
Reputation: 14
Weight(kg): 78
Age: 35
Now that surely is a joke :-)
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Quote ( David Rolleston @ January 4th 2012,13:57:18 )
Rimantas, I think you meant Z's old driver not Uzi's
Yeah, that's even a better example, mate!
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when I saw Z's driver I was actually disappointed to see an elite winning driver for the first time :(
I mean cumon with that guy he actually won...
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We are missing (at least most of us) some serious points in drivers pace. all season long when I compared my driver to Uzi driver, my driver was superior in all catagories (except a few kgs) and my car was always better. And still we had almost identical paces Why so? Some ratios? but I think all ratios our drivers we had were pretty similar~
talking about Z driver... I had +127 talent, +90 stamina, similar agg (even more usually), had even less kg but had 9 exp less. Was slower in race pace quite a few times!
Overall, I would like to see changes (just the suggestions variety is huge and not sure what to do). But what I would not like to see is some hidden tweaking. These things totally annoys me...
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Quote ( Leandro Sereno @ January 4th 2012,13:19:40 ) Decrease importance of driver experience!
This is the one that should be re-fixed..! Rest things are okay..!
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ January 4th 2012,13:53:31 )
A manager has 2 sponsors under current rules who pay 2mln each. 4mln in total.
If you increase negotiation progress by 50%, the manager would be able to get 3 sponsors during the same time, he managed to get 2 sponsors under current rules.
THOUGH, the manager would get not 2mln from each sponsor but only 1mln. In total 3mln. So what this implementation would change?
with the implementation top elite managers who have 4 sponsors will have 5 but managers who have 1-2 sponsors will have 2-3 which is a much bigger increase if you get what i mean..
moreover top elites won't be able to sign again and again new sponsors as they won't have free place on the car
as a result middle-place managers will be able to sign better sponsors or at least those who really do their homework :)
however
i also disagree with price reduction because you decrease the importance of constantly high-risk strategies in lower divisions and increases very much the importance of OBP ones...
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Quote ( Justinas Smyšliajevas @ January 4th 2012,14:08:59 ) But what I would not like to see is some hidden tweaking
well going by your facts there are some hidden facts about pace after all...but I think mostly it is car related
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ January 4th 2012,13:53:31 )
I don't think this would actually help. Let's take an example:
A manager has 2 sponsors under current rules who pay 2mln each. 4mln in total.
If you increase negotiation progress by 50%, the manager would be able to get 3 sponsors during the same time, he managed to get 2 sponsors under current rules.
THOUGH, the manager would get not 2mln from each sponsor but only 1mln. In total 3mln. So what this implementation would change?
I think you're missing the point Rimantas.
Assume that a mid-pack Elite can sign 5 $2m, 20 race contracts per 2 seasons just now. That's $200m over 2 seasons under the existing rules.
Assume that a top Elite can sign 7 $3m, 20 race contracts per 2 seasons just now. That's $420m over 2 seasons.
Under what Mikko proposes, the following would happen:
A mid-pack Elite could sign 7.5 $1m, 20 race contracts per 2 seasons. That's $150m, a $50m gross drop or 25% reduction.
A top Elite could technically sign 10.5 $1.5m, 20 race contracts per 2 seasons, but if there are only 5 sponsor slots, and only 34 races to go around, then there is only 5*34 (170) race slots that can be occupied, 10.5*20 is 210 so 40 race slots are lost in that same example time frame.
If that loss wasn't accounted for, then the top Elite's income would drop to $315m, a $105m gross drop, or 25% reduction, but you also have to add in the lost 40 race slots, which is $60m further drop, resulting in a gross drop of $165m, or a 39.3% drop.
Does that help?
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I'd take the exp change further. Looking at the recent years in F1 shows that it has become a game of reflexes rather than cunning and experience. Several very successfull drivers have come through when barely out of the carts. Limit exp effect on pace logaritmically from 0 and upwards. Once past 100 or so it should have a limited effect. In return increase some of the other benefits a little as well as lowering the effect on oa.
This together with Mikkos sponsor suggestion (percentages could be discussed if total should remain same or not) and you have two easy to implement features that would help a lot.
Raising oa barrier in master will also help but would have to go all the way down or you create the gap somewhere else. 25-30 is probably the highest you can have between divisions without having to change driver to be competitive.
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Quote ( Justinas Smyšliajevas @ January 3rd 2012,23:35:33 ) 2) Rise master OA limit. Now elite drivers are stronger than ever. So why not to give ability to have stronger master drivers?
i do not agree. i'd rather raising TD's limits. TD in master allows you to keep your points at level 25-30PHA. it is NOT possible to keep your PHA points higher.
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