|
Fórum téma Szavazás
Shall we send them back to Rookie?
|
| Szerző |
Téma: Top 3 Punishment in Elite |
349 válasz
|
|
|
|
#31 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 00:28:09
|
Idézet
|
|
Solve the thing with the untrainables first and look at the results.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#32 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 00:46:58
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Paul Bright @ January 2nd 2017,23:42:04 )
"Where's the 'No, because it's just a silly complaint' option on the pole?
All the No, options are remarkably 'snide'."
-------------------------------------------
Quote me
"'Innocent sheeps' are snide? 'Innocent Jaguars' wouldn't be?"
-------------------------------------------
Btw, sorry, I cannot change the voting. :/
|
|
|
|
|
|
#33 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 01:03:44
|
Idézet
|
|
I think the OP has a good point but instead of the top 3 it should be just specific managers sent back to rookie, this one comes to mind: /gb/ManagerProfile.asp?IDM=233880
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 2nd 2017,22:10:49 ) Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ January 2nd 2017,22:07:44 )
Sorry but these collusions happen everywhere, even more sorry to say thus is probably the daftest idea ever
I succeed promoting to Elite without them. Sorry, but there are no statistics about who succeed without them, and who didn't.
But can you explain why we should believe you succeeded without them when you obviously don't believe my similar statements about the minimal meaningful levels of sponsor collusion?
When you're at the top you don't need to collude because you beat nearly everybody in progress per race. Pick a good sponsor and go with it. 90% of the time you're ahead and can see it clearly very soon. The other 10% of the time you have a strong competitor so you look over which of the top guys finished a sponsor recently, identify the competitor and decide if you can beat him. If you're feeling really chatty you mail them and try to persuade them to back down but it usually amounts to just acknowledging being on the same sponsor and then deciding whether to pursue it or not. Once in a blue moon a deal is made yes. Then the debt almost never repaid because they're that rare.
And the closer you are to the top the easier it is. When you're running away with the season you have zero reason to collude. You win any sponsor you touch. So we should rookie reset everyone in Elite except the champion? :)
Really there are much bigger problems with the sponsor system in Elite without needing to run with a conspiracy theory created by people who thought they were held back by being left out of the sponsor illuminati.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#35 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 01:46:42
|
Idézet
|
I just passed by to laugh at your hypocrisy Patrik. From the current top 5, 3 have promoted this season or the season before. It's funny how you propose something that in current scenario prejudices the ones aimed to be protected :P
Sarcasm apart ;D, most of your interventions lack substance/backup. They all seem to come from the same place, which is your pre-concept that newbies can't do well at Elite, specially if they do not come from the group of more established teams. That pre-concept is making you try to connect everything with that, forcing conclusions even when in some cases there's not even a superficial/partial relationship between performance, seniority, team, etc. Most "problems" you notice have diverse and multiple origins, and most of them are not as big problems as you perceive.
Personally, I would want to see you backup your suggestions with more substance and less pre-concepts. But damn you are entertaining :D, never relegate from Elite!
|
|
|
|
|
Well this is a silly topic...
|
|
|
|
|
|
#37 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 03:18:58 (módosítva: 2017. január 3. 03:25:05 Ivan Silva által)
|
Idézet
|
Patrik pointed out a good topic but made the wrong suggestion imo. Yes, i am 100% sure those backstage actions happen as if you check only a restricted set of managers control the sponsors with finances on 5 or higher (its a pattern that has been verified for some time, most noticeable since the manager's sponsor page was brought in the game). Some spiders you used to see around were made to track this movements before the manager's sponsors page was brought in.
I believe the best for the game would be a cut of money offer from elite sponsors, People should be more leveled when it comes to revenue and maybe (a big maybe) balance is brought back in the game.
Quote ( Roland Postle @ January 3rd 2017,01:29:30 ) When you're at the top you don't need to collude because you beat nearly everybody in progress per race.
Yes, this is unquestionable. I assume what he meant is how there's few conflict between top managers for top sponsors. All managers in the circle constantly have sponsor revenue which would not be the case if top managers were fighting each other for those sponsors so you cant deny there's no info in here.
I have nothing against, its a valid strategy anyway so i rather focus on the reducing sponsor revenue part and decreasing difference of revenue between elite managers.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Roland Postle @ January 3rd 2017,01:29:30 ) But can you explain why we should believe you succeeded without them when you obviously don't believe my similar statements about the minimal meaningful levels of sponsor collusion?
I have only crappy Ama sponsors now, as you can see. And there won't be much more in the future. Unless we don't make a pact. ;)
Quote ( Roland Postle @ January 3rd 2017,01:29:30 ) So we should rookie reset everyone in Elite except the champion? :)
Except the champion? Why exactly?
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,01:46:42 )
I just passed by to laugh at your hypocrisy Patrik. From the current top 5, 3 have promoted this season or the season before. It's funny how you propose something that in current scenario prejudices the ones aimed to be protected :P
The season is not over till now. Things can happen. Do you remember how Justinas became from 2nd to 5th last season?
Driver energy or new tyre suppliers always cause a churn. But then the balance will be set in. And for most Master promoters, top 10 is available for 1 or 2 seasons. Then come the hard times. Which presents that you can be ready for Elite in Master, but then...it's an another world with other pacts.
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,01:46:42 ) Sarcasm apart ;D, most of your interventions lack substance/backup. They all seem to come from the same place, which is your pre-concept that newbies can't do well at Elite, specially if they do not come from the group of more established teams. That pre-concept is making you try to connect everything with that, forcing conclusions even when in some cases there's not even a superficial/partial relationship between performance, seniority, team, etc. Most "problems" you notice have diverse and multiple origins, and most of them are not as big problems as you perceive.
I know most of it. And seniority in Elite seems to be connected with performance in most cases, because of untrainables.
And my 'suggestion' had 2 parts:
1. Complaining about sponsor cartel (which maybe doesn't exist, but now it will be more likely to exist). You can say I'm entertaining, but it can be a behaviour strategy from Jaguar, against me. (I know, I'm entertaining again. :D )
2. The real changes, to brake the boredom of Elite. Every other game which I know, the concentration rate of champions is lower than in GPRO. (In GPRO, titles per champion is 2.6; in Elite Betting Game is 1.5; in F1 is 2.1).
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,01:46:42 ) Personally, I would want to see you backup your suggestions with more substance and less pre-concepts.
Behaviour strategy, as I said. To be honest, You told me once in the chat that top teams always killed the race at the top.
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,01:46:42 ) But damn you are entertaining :D, never relegate from Elite!
Thank You, but it'll be depending on weather, and its forecast.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jan Velske @ January 3rd 2017,00:28:09 ) Solve the thing with the untrainables first and look at the results.
You can wait 10 more seasons, but then don't wonder if you will face with the same opponents, as me now.
I think that removing sponsors from all classes (or from Elite only) wouldn't be a bad idea.
And Flo, 1 more:
I am currently second in the Elite Betting Game, which can mean that I have a really good picture about Elite situation.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,03:29:21 ) The season is not over till now. Things can happen. Do you remember how Justinas became from 2nd to 5th last season? Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,01:46:42 ) that in current scenario
Current scenario is current scenario ;D
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,03:29:21 ) nd seniority in Elite seems to be connected with performance in most cases, because of untrainables.
That is extremely over-simplistic, and once again you are assigning an explanation to something just to suit your theory. That's why I had stated this:Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,01:46:42 ) Most "problems" you notice have diverse and multiple origins, and most of them are not as big problems as you perceive.
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,03:29:21 ) You told me once in the chat that top teams always killed the race at the top.
Anything to suit your theory, right? :) Anything but real arguments ;D
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,03:29:21 ) 1. Complaining about sponsor cartel
Agree with what Roland stated, as my own experience is similar in these matters. I got contacted about a sponsor only once in 8 previous Elite seasons.
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,03:29:21 ) 2. The real changes, to brake the boredom of Elite.
I do not disagree that there might be some "boredom", but you keep failing to present valid arguments to backup what you see/feel, Patrik.
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,04:59:06 ) And Flo, 1 more:
I am currently second in the Elite Betting Game, which can mean that I have a really good picture about Elite situation.
Aren't you Argentinian, by chance? Everyone in this country believe themselves Football TDs, just for being observers ;D
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,03:29:21 ) Thank You, but it'll be depending on weather, and its forecast. Silly me, I thought that depended on your management :D
|
|
|
|
For me it is also a problem that some people didn't read observantly what I had written in the past.
I had only two sponsor losses and no wins, since playing in Elite. And those two managers who took the sponsors were Pavlicek and Dimitroglou. Other evidences? I can prove nothing more, and you will always deny.
But I would be really curious about the opinion of these 5 people what I mentioned in the beginning of the topic.
I don't feel I would keep failing my arguments... :)
Would You better play Elite Betting Game? Just to know, what a feel beginning with 'equal chances' as others said. ;)
My management is mine, not yours, or not of my any teammates.
|
|
|
|
|
There needs to be changes to the sponsor system for sure.... but to say that someone should be relegated based off of good performance is ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#43 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 08:14:29
|
Idézet
|
|
If the king is corrupt that does not mean next king will be not
|
|
|
|
|
|
#44 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 08:27:42
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ January 3rd 2017,05:14:43 ) Aren't you Argentinian, by chance? Everyone in this country believe themselves Football TDs, just for being observers ;D
Or a Pole. Ca. 38mil of candidates for the national coach position, knowing everything about football :-)
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,05:49:36 ) I had only two sponsor losses and no wins, since playing in Elite. And those two managers who took the sponsors were Pavlicek and Dimitroglou.
And? What does it prove?
|
|
|
|
|
That I'm rivaling with top teams and I'm not convinced if their resources or their conscience would be fully clean.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#46 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 09:03:01
|
Idézet
|
|
Oh how gpro similar to F1. If some team is dominating, there are (N-1) who wants to change the rules. If RBR is dominating, there are (N-2)
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,08:36:30 ) That I'm rivaling with top teams
This is correct. But it has nothing to do with the correctness being clean. You were just not prepared enough to fight for the TOP sponsors.
|
|
|
|
Sponsors system need a change, it's the lack part of the game and we ask for a change since years. Maybe a better system could restrict collusions possibilities, however there are no rules to prevent Elite managers to send some PM to others managers talking about sponsors.
If the system is lack,you need to change the system, it's useless to punish someone (and so hard to prove something).
|
|
|
|
|
|
#49 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 09:29:06
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Patrik Balogh @ January 3rd 2017,08:36:30 ) That I'm rivaling with top teams
If you are doing so well against top teams (only lost 2 sponsors), would that not point more towards the collusion not being nearly as big a deal as you make it out to be?
|
|
|
|
|
|
#50 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 09:37:23
|
Idézet
|
Is n't it normal to discuss sponsors with teamates???
I don't know if this is corruption or whatever, but gpro us also a team sport..
And yes , there can be teamwork in the sponsor area.. is that bad??
Even with Jan when we discussed about races when we had the fight for the cup at his last season, we didn't really made a sponsor cartel..
If we had chosen the same sponsor it would be easy to know..
The problem with sponsors in elite is not cospiracy theories.. (i had more talks in lower categories)
The problem is that top guys do not promote....
The champion usually gas the disadvantage of champioship bonuses ( clear one in the top td era)
But yes the top 5 has a clear advantage over the rest..
With the driver energy feature, it has got harder for top manager to stay at top, as non-driver related package is much less important
And imo even sponsor income is less important...
|
|
|
|
|
|
#51 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 09:49:41
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Jan Velske @ January 3rd 2017,00:28:09 ) Solve the thing with the untrainables first and look at the results.
Why should anything change about that? i have max on both of them, changing it now would mean that the work i put into it was a waste of time. This game is not about getting to Elite fast and become a champion it is a managing game where you nee patience
|
|
|
|
|
|
#52 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 10:30:50
|
Idézet
|
By the same idea we should also kick Ferrari, Mercedes and Red bull out of F1 cause they are most of time in the top
Here are some statistics about the top teams in F1
2016 F1 Constructor Championship
1 Germany Mercedes 765
2 Austria Red Bull 468
3 Italy Ferrari 398
2015 Formula 1 Championship Constructor Standings
1 Germany MERCEDES
2 Italy FERRARI
3 United Kingdom WILLIAMS
2014 Formula 1 Championship Constructor Standings
1 Germany MERCEDES
2 Austria RED BULL
3 United Kingdom WILLIAMS
2013 Formula 1 Championship Constructor Standings
1 Austria RED BULL
2 Germany MERCEDES
3 Italy FERRARI
2012 F1 Constructors Championship
1 Austria RED BULL
2 Italy FERRARI 5
3 United Kingdom MCLAREN
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#53 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 10:34:13 (módosítva: 2017. január 3. 10:34:33 Hugo Merlin által)
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ January 3rd 2017,09:49:41 ) Quote ( Jan Velske @ January 3rd 2017,00:28:09 )
Solve the thing with the untrainables first and look at the results.
Why should anything change about that? i have max on both of them, changing it now would mean that the work i put into it was a waste of time. This game is not about getting to Elite fast and become a champion it is a managing game where you nee patience
Totally agree!
|
|
|
|
|
|
#54 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 10:35:59
|
Idézet
|
|
Untrainables should be different, but at this point it's too late for them to be changed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#55 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 10:44:59 (módosítva: 2017. január 3. 11:00:19 Edwin Silva által)
|
Idézet
|
We already had this discussion several times. There is absolute no need for a frontrunner to have any kind of collusion simply because a frontrunner can get whatever sponsor he aims for. The reason is simple. Let's say you are a frontrunner (as in a top 5 guy) getting 10% advance per race in average. Even if the leading manager gets 11%, and that would be an exaggeration, as long as he doesn't jump in your negotiation exactly when you started them, you'll get the sponsor. For example, if he jumps in 1 race afterwards, after 10 races you'll be at 100% and he will be at 99%, so you won.
The trick here is timing. If your performance is that great, you can cherrypick the target sponsor and have, as Roland said, very high likelihood you will grab it. Besides, what would you gain by dealing with other people? If their performance is better, they will get the sponsor, and if your performance is better, what would you gain by dealing with them?
In addition, probably as an unforeseen consequence of the energy feature, better S&F and car is not that important anymore, which means cash isn't that important anymore either, so sponsorship isn't that crucial now. I don't know if that's a good thing, though, because I don't like the fact a season isn't decided by race strategies or money management (to certain point) or package build but mainly on the market day.
This doesn't mean I don't think there is a sponsorship monopoly in Elite. There is, just not in a colluded way. That's the reason some seasons ago (Leandro's days) you could see the same sponsors being signed by the same managers all the time: get the sponsor, contract is over, negotiate with it again, rinse and repeat. There is nothing a middle or back of the pack guy can do against that. Elite is particularly critical for that because in the other leagues the frontrunners leave due to promotion and are replaced by people with worse package, so a consistent manager still has a shot at fighting for the good sponsors. In Elite the top guys remain, so anybody outside top 10 has an almost impossible hill to climb.
|
|
|
|
|
Rather an extreme solution to punish the top managers for something I would not classify as cheating but a minor flaw in initial game design they are taking advantage of
|
|
|
|
|
|
#57 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 10:56:39 (módosítva: 2017. január 3. 11:00:43 Hugo Merlin által)
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ January 3rd 2017,10:44:59 ) For example, if he jumps in 1 race afterwards, after 10 races you'll be at 100% and he will be at 99%, so you won.
Unless the front runner has more Randoms or does a strategy mistake at some point :)
But yes the odds are not that great to steal a Sponsor from the tops guys. But that´s part of being at the top level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#58 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 11:19:36
|
Idézet
|
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ January 3rd 2017,09:37:23 ) Is n't it normal to discuss sponsors with teamates???
I don't know if this is corruption or whatever, but gpro us also a team sport..
And yes , there can be teamwork in the sponsor area.. is that bad??
Even with Jan when we discussed about races when we had the fight for the cup at his last season, we didn't really made a sponsor cartel..
If we had chosen the same sponsor it would be easy to know..
The problem with sponsors in elite is not cospiracy theories.. (i had more talks in lower categories)
The problem is that top guys do not promote....
The champion usually gas the disadvantage of champioship bonuses ( clear one in the top td era)
But yes the top 5 has a clear advantage over the rest..
With the driver energy feature, it has got harder for top manager to stay at top, as non-driver related package is much less important
And imo even sponsor income is less important...
It sounded convincingly; and speaking with teammates, it's really not a prohibited thing.
However, I totally have to agree with Edwin:
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ January 3rd 2017,10:44:59 ) This doesn't mean I don't think there is a sponsorship monopoly in Elite.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#59 Elküldve: 2017. január 3. 12:11:02
|
Idézet
|
|
Don't quote me out of context, Patrick. I said there is a monopoly as in the top sponsors are in the hands of just a few guys, which is precisely what I said in the exact next phrase that you didn't quote, and that's completely different to your collusion statement.
|
|
|
|
A good place to start to think the question might be:
And if the percentage gain per race in Elite was based not only on the results in each race, nor only in stats mechanics, but on the results relative, comparatively, to the previous season's manager position (being in another league, on the bottom of the retention table, etc.)? And if certain sponsors in Elite were reserved for those who approached first, without competition possibility, but in this case REDUCING the amount of possible negotiations of the approaching manager (inlcuding the ones he is already negotiating with)?
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Română
Italiano
Português
Português
Français
Polski
Русский
Български
Македонски
Српски
Nederlands
Vlaams
Suomi
Lietuvių
Čeština
Eesti keel
Slovenčina
Türkçe
Shqip
Ελληνικά
Hrvatski
Bahasa Melayu
Dansk
Pirate
