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Fórum téma Szavazás
Who's in favor, the first 10 places were scored
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Téma: Points system |
242 válasz
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#121 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 10:03:45
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Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ August 12th 2021,09:40:03 ) Tbh.... that looks more like a boost for OBP's chances and a potentially reversed end result on the situation wrt desired rewards for consistency etc compared to discussions so far?
Yes, extending to top 10 will have a little effect imho on that aspect but still you give other competitors two more chances to score points. Dont' think it could have an adverse effect though. If an OBP scores a P1 today he/she gets 10 points and another manager would need 11 P8 to beat him. With the point system quoted above a P1 would get 25 points and another manager would need 6 P8 and 1 P9 to beat him, or 13 P9. Just some examples.
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Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ August 12th 2021,10:03:45 ) Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ August 12th 2021,09:40:03 )
Tbh.... that looks more like a boost for OBP's chances and a potentially reversed end result on the situation wrt desired rewards for consistency etc compared to discussions so far?
Yes, extending to top 10 will have a little effect imho on that aspect but still you give other competitors two more chances to score points. Dont' think it could have an adverse effect though. If an OBP scores a P1 today he/she gets 10 points and another manager would need 11 P8 to beat him. With the point system quoted above a P1 would get 25 points and another manager would need 6 P8 and 1 P9 to beat him, or 13 P9. Just some examples.
But then, kinda what you're saying then implies that the problem is the points distribution between 1st and 8th, not a about 9th to 10th not scoring, as in your scenario, nothing has changed for 9th and 10th, they still can't come close to beating the OBP drivers.
And if the retort now is its not about the guys in 9th/10th beating the OBP's its about rewarding consistency, who exactly would they need to beat other than the OBP managers?
So then, if its about letting those who finish 9th-10th reasonably consistently, beat the OBP who only manage a 7th or 8th, do we then maybe not need to ask the question, for what reason is 10th considered the place for said cutoff, what makes it better than 8th? Should it be 15th? And what should the points distribution be to ensure fair reward for consistency over a season? And on that talk of consistency, should more wins wins win a championship, or more consistency, what's good for the goose, good for gander as they say.
What is the desired end result wrt rewarding consistency, without a clear goal, how do we build any actual solution? At what point should OBP outweigh consistency? Should it at all?
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#123 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 13:50:25
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ August 12th 2021,08:26:45 ) Wow, this discussion has really changed the result of the initial poll.
At the start, there were a lot more against the change, than with it, now its even.
Note that many initial voters (myself included) just saw another low-effort poll with basically no information and a binary choice for one particlular new scoring system.
I myself voted "No", because I didn't want to support a poorly thought out suggestion that wouldn't even solve the issues I see with the current system
Had the poll been "The scoring system should be changed", things would probably have been very different.
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#124 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 14:18:29
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Quote ( Radek Reif @ August 12th 2021,09:32:35 ) Yes 25 18 15 12 10 8 6 4 2 1
I like how people are using facts and data to fundament their opinion on the point system, and giving a detailed look at what happens when the system is like X and this guy is like
"haha f1 go brrrrr"
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#125 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 14:45:42
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Motto: (A better result with a weaker set deserves more than .....)
Every barn should have a "degree of goodness". (The calculation methodology needs to be developed.)
Competition score must be divided by the previous one.
This gives the actual score.
Did I reach into the wasp's nest?
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Quote ( Jens Jäschke @ August 12th 2021,13:50:25 ) Note that many initial voters (myself included) just saw another low-effort poll with basically no information and a binary choice for one particlular new scoring system.
I myself voted "No", because I didn't want to support a poorly thought out suggestion that wouldn't even solve the issues I see with the current system
Had the poll been "The scoring system should be changed", things would probably have been very different.
Good point Jens.
Quote ( Ricardo Antunes @ August 12th 2021,14:18:29 )
I like how people are using facts and data to fundament their opinion on the point system, and giving a detailed look at what happens when the system is like X and this guy is like
"haha f1 go brrrrr"
Very good one Ricardo, lmao :D
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#127 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 15:07:58
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Quote ( Radek Reif @ August 12th 2021,09:32:35 ) Yes 25 18 15 12 10 8 6 4 2 1
Why you want this same system like in F1. We can introduce a new solution. If in F1 is about 20 drivers and score about half so maybe in this game we can create a new punctation to 20 drives
e.g.
1. 50
2. 45
3. 40
4. 36
5. 33
6. 30
7. 27
8. 24
9. 21
10. 18
11. 15
12. 13
13. 11
14. 9
15. 7
16. 5
17. 4
18. 3
19. 2
20. 1
In my opinion maybe it's good decision to refresh a point system, but people smarter than me should decide what this system will look like.
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#128 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 17:41:32
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I do note care which point system is in place. If such a change communicated way in advance, if you are a decent manager you should be able to easily adapt your season strategy and long term strategy to the new system, whatever that point system might be. I am not in favor of any system so I will not vote in the poll, as long as the economical system around it works, it is fine by me.
Related to F1, I preferred the time where only the top 6 cars were given points. All focus of the top teams was on speed, and much less on consistency so there were loads of car failures and races were exciting until the end because you never knew which would be the next top car to retire in the race. In those days it was even easier for back-end teams like Minardi to score points than it is for the Haas team now, because of all the retirements.
If a new system is in place I agree this should be something different than what exists in F1 or any other racing class. Simply because this is not F1 or FE or Indycars, but GPRO. But to be honest, I think there are more important changes required (such as a mobile app) than this.
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#129 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 17:57:10
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My post from other points thread.
Why not try a more radical approach?
Run every group like Rookie, from x season, you start with the car level you had the previous season and a set amount of cash, something like:
Rookie 150m (or roughly cash for 4 full car updates at L3)
Amateur 180m (or roughly cash for 4 full car updates at L4)
Pro 210M (or roughly cash for 4 full car updates at L5)
Master 240m (or roughly cash for 4 full car updates at L6)
Elite 270m (or roughly cash for 4 full car updates at L7)
You get NO cash or points from races, but negotiate with sponsors, train drivers and sign TD & drivers/extend contracts in the usual way.
Promotion and relegation are decided by an AVERAGE of your seasons position, people who quit half way through a season would drop down the order and not hog higher spots (due to the points they have acquired) leading to someone who is playing not necessarily getting relegated, also removes OBP as a viable strategy to a large degree and rewards consistency. EOS money is awarded based on group and is carried forward to the following season.
Elite 20m for top down in 500k increments
Master 16m down in 400K increments
Pro 12m down in 300k increments
Amateur 8m down in 200K increments
Rookie 4m down in 100k increments
You start next season in your group with the relevant start money plus the "bonus" for your previous season performance.
How feasible it is who knows, but it removes points system as a debate and the table would simply reflect average position.
It would remove a significant amount the financial side of things, but you would still need to manage finances to finish the season and maintain your car.
Like I said radical, but the general complaints/desire to change, seems to be about creating a more "equal" system of risk/reward.
Biggest potential problem is poorer car than most when you promote, but it also removes the cash hoarding option of sitting in amateur.
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#130 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 18:10:03
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Quote ( Bartek Kubiak @ August 12th 2021,15:07:58 ) but people smarter than me should decide what this system will look like. I think it was decided a long time ago: no way.
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#131 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 18:15:00
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Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ August 12th 2021,10:16:23 ) Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ August 12th 2021,10:03:45 )
Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ August 12th 2021,09:40:03 )
Tbh.... that looks more like a boost for OBP's chances and a potentially reversed end result on the situation wrt desired rewards for consistency etc compared to discussions so far?
Yes, extending to top 10 will have a little effect imho on that aspect but still you give other competitors two more chances to score points. Dont' think it could have an adverse effect though. If an OBP scores a P1 today he/she gets 10 points and another manager would need 11 P8 to beat him. With the point system quoted above a P1 would get 25 points and another manager would need 6 P8 and 1 P9 to beat him, or 13 P9. Just some examples.
But then, kinda what you're saying then implies that the problem is the points distribution between 1st and 8th, not a about 9th to 10th not scoring, as in your scenario, nothing has changed for 9th and 10th, they still can't come close to beating the OBP drivers.
And if the retort now is its not about the guys in 9th/10th beating the OBP's its about rewarding consistency, who exactly would they need to beat other than the OBP managers?
So then, if its about letting those who finish 9th-10th reasonably consistently, beat the OBP who only manage a 7th or 8th, do we then maybe not need to ask the question, for what reason is 10th considered the place for said cutoff, what makes it better than 8th? Should it be 15th? And what should the points distribution be to ensure fair reward for consistency over a season? And on that talk of consistency, should more wins wins win a championship, or more consistency, what's good for the goose, good for gander as they say.
What is the desired end result wrt rewarding consistency, without a clear goal, how do we build any actual solution? At what point should OBP outweigh consistency? Should it at all?
I never said that 10th should be the cut off. Personally I would give points to top 15 at least. Also, I'm not saying that the point system should change to kill OBP or should have a specific impact on the game dynamics. I believe however that having only 8 managers scoring in a race with 40 managers is not so good. After all, if, as someone suggests, a change in the point system would not change anything in the final standings, why not trying? The final result may be the same but with much more fun as you will have more chances to fight every single race of the season to achieve your target.I am of the opinion that fighting for something even with managers of your level (and not necessarily against successful OBP managers) and gaining points to climb the ladder would be more satisfying than overspending to get a a 12th place to secure retention as each race would be more enjoyable than it is now. Personal opinion.
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#132 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 18:24:47
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I need a point system that makes me look as less noob as possible. Points to top 5 is the one but I am afraid that might not be enough. Maybe giving medals to top 3? :)
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This poll is requesting another poll already. Which is the point system of your preference?
Including the current and a couple of most proposed alternatives.
I still want to see what happens this season in Amateur with "only" 38 cars per group. The point system got a bit fairer with that. I'm betting on a bigger active manager retention than the normal seasons S79 and S80, 8 relegating out of 40, the... plague of seasons S81 and S82, with 10 relegating out of 40, and a loss above 10% of managers each season, in AMA only, and this season and hopefully next season, with 8 relegating out 38.
For me it's change of point system or group sizes. Or both.
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#134 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 19:12:14
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I’m rather indifferent but I think awarding points to the top 15 is the sweet spot if the system is changed. Top 10 would not effectively address the issues that are being discussed. It could be argued that finishing 15th is not anything great, but it is an above average result (assuming a group is at or close to full capacity of 40 managers) whereas the median finishing position is about 18/19/20th. I feel if you award points down to 20th then you would be getting points for being average, which I don’t agree with.
I think Ania or perhaps someone else made a similar post already, so forgive me if I have jumped on the bandwagon!
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#135 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 19:50:53
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IMHO, changes to the game, points, tires, etc., will not change my advancement or enjoyment of the game in any way. I am one of the many who enjoy the game for what it is, while dedicating not quite enough time to advance far. I believe there are many like me. That said, a change to the point system may have little to no effect to my game.
And now comes the wrath... ;)
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#136 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 21:12:59
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Quote ( Bruce Stad @ August 12th 2021,19:50:53 ) IMHO, changes to the game, points, tires, etc., will not change my advancement or enjoyment of the game in any way. I am one of the many who enjoy the game for what it is, while dedicating not quite enough time to advance far. I believe there are many like me. That said, a change to the point system may have little to no effect to my game.
And now comes the wrath... ;)
+1
Change it now and in a couple of years it'll be the same discussion all over again
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#137 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 21:22:54 (módosítva: 2021. augusztus 12. 21:25:17 Toms Polis által)
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Nah, i would quite playing this game if they turn this to some school sport day, where everyone get prize.
Without competition to fight for top 8, i don't see why to keep play. I never liked when its to easy to get something. And its not only in this game but every game what i play in internet or just PC/PS4 i always set game for the hardest mode what can be selected so there is real challenge to win and be the best.
And i think there is lot ppl like me in this game.
I think for all this ideas what you got here, you just need a new game where to introduce all new.
E : its just my opinion
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#138 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 21:43:56
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The initial reasons for a post that asks for changing the point system has been based on nothing more that “well it is what F1 uses” …so a subjective reason, that does not take into account that this is a management racing game and not a racing management game.
I will say that a few managers have already posted correctly the situation in hand about the current point system and OBP VS Consistency (without deluging the underling narrative – maybe they are blissfully unaware or smarter than they look 😊) and the futility of asking to change the point system.
To clarify = Consistency is already rewarded, take Amateur as an example, (based on previous posted example)
Additional income = approx. $77M
Additional Team points = 47
Sponsor progress.
Driver motivation.
Etc
The points do not matter as any good manager will plan his season on race finish position and not points, (he may however use points as a reference).
This is a management game and changing the point system will have no affect on this as managers will simply adapt to any changes.
Quote ( Luke Frost @ August 7th 2021,09:41:30 )
But my opinion, yes i agree it should be changed. Because it's been 12 years since it was changed.
The argument to change the points system or indeed anything because it has not been changed for 12+ years is hardly any basis for change.
Quote ( Michael Keeney @ August 9th 2021,19:03:42 )
I've heard every argument under the son and they don't wash with me.
We all know why you and others are pushing this narrative to reward consistency, (unfortunately some managers do not understand the bigger picture), and I am certain that admin is fully aware and why rewarding consistency will never be adopted in a management game.
Please do not misunderstand me, I would be happy if consistency would be rewarded, considering I am running the Vipers this would suit me perfectly, however other family teams would also benefit from this and so in the interest of fairness, I am against any such implementation.
But just in case, I have now revised the Vipers main game objectives :- https://gproforum.freeforums.net/
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#139 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 21:52:38
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Quote ( Toms Polis @ August 12th 2021,21:22:54 ) Without competition to fight for top 8, i don't see why to keep play.
I have never seen more truth in a quote. :)
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So, would it be an excellent or a bad one, if we were currently fighting for a top 6 points and wanted to change it to top 8.....?
I suspect the same "truth" would be applied to that scenario. ;)
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#141 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:06:50
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Quote ( Bruce Stad @ August 12th 2021,19:50:53 ) That said, a change to the point system may have little to no effect to my game.
I can believe you, if you are a "casual" gamer.
Quote ( Toms Polis @ August 12th 2021,21:22:54 ) I never liked when its to easy to get something.
Why do you believe it would be easier with a different point system?
Quote ( Mike Bennett @ August 12th 2021,21:43:56 ) This is a management game and changing the point system will have no affect on this as managers will simply adapt to any changes.
As managers adapted to tyres, energy, PHA match and so on.
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#142 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:10:35
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It is not the other who need to be persuaded, but the staff.
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#143 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:21:21 (módosítva: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:23:08 Mike Bennett által)
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Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ August 12th 2021,22:06:50 ) As managers adapted to tyres, energy, PHA match and so on.
Unfortunately the biggest problem is the tyre suppliers - read choices!
We should use the original 6 and remove the OBP tyre option... /gb/SuppliersHistory.asp?Season=17
This will bring back stability in the game when we remove:- Avonn, Contimental and Hancock.
PHA matching was a thing, but now very few care about PHA matching and just compensate with higher level car parts/ risks/ tyre supplier.
I (The Vipers) have no problem with DE :)
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#144 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:32:05 (módosítva: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:33:44 Toms Polis által)
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Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ August 12th 2021,22:06:50 ) Why do you believe it would be easier with a different point system?
Because you don't need anymore try hard to get points?
I'am more talking about points to 15th or 20th place like there is some idea about that. Getting points by not even trying get them and fight for them would ruine game for me. Yes i understand that you still need to collect them to retain in group, but it still would be like getting points for free :D
Points for 10th place, what i don't like there, is just point system. 25p for first place. Its just look ridiculous for me. I don't even like it in F1 :D 200 points in just some 10 race really look rediculous :D
Still its just my opinion.
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#145 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:48:01
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Quote ( Zé Pedro Paula @ August 12th 2021,19:04:29 ) For me it's change of group sizes.
This is not a bad suggestion, and I have considered this my self and I think this worthy of further discussion?
The fact that new managers in rookie are happy to be in a group of ~12, and that they have a good experience/ entertainment/enjoyment from the race.
When they are faced with the possible promotion to Amateur where there are almost 3 x as many in the group they do not wish to promote.
Reducing the group numbers in Amateur (Pro) could in fact achieve a greater new player retention in the game ?
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#146 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 22:52:05
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The level of competition is not based on the points system, it is based on the level of your opponents in relation to what you know about the game and how strong you are etc. If your opponents are still the same, game won't be any easier.
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#147 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 23:04:44 (módosítva: 2021. augusztus 12. 23:07:14 Mike Bennett által)
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Quote ( Toms Polis @ August 12th 2021,22:32:05 ) Quote ( Alessandro Casagrande @ August 12th 2021,22:06:50 )
Why do you believe it would be easier with a different point system?
Because you don't need anymore try hard to get points?
And there you have it the "main " reason for changing the points system :)
QED
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#148 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 23:16:49
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Quote ( André de Carvalho @ August 12th 2021,22:52:05 ) The level of competition is not based on the points system, it is based on the level of your opponents in relation to what you know about the game and how strong you are etc. If your opponents are still the same, game won't be any easier.
I disagree this. Because you already can see how its change during season when they get retain points and don't even try anymore get them.
Change the point system and you will see slowly how it will be change from push hard to get points to it is enough for just run 10 ct to get points and not even try hard. The less spot for getting points, the more competition is to get them and retain.
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Quote ( Toms Polis @ August 12th 2021,23:16:49 ) I disagree this. Because you already can see how its change during season when they get retain points and don't even try anymore get them.
Change the point system and you will see slowly how it will be change from push hard to get points to it is enough for just run 10 ct to get points and not even try hard. The less spot for getting points, the more competition is to get them and retain.
What you are describing here is an unsuccessful acount, so i wouldn't worry about them in the long run. Take the good mangers as exemples, do you see them playing like this?
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#150 Elküldve: 2021. augusztus 12. 23:32:03
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Quote ( André de Carvalho @ August 12th 2021,23:20:12 ) Quote ( Toms Polis @ August 12th 2021,23:16:49 )
I disagree this. Because you already can see how its change during season when they get retain points and don't even try anymore get them.
Change the point system and you will see slowly how it will be change from push hard to get points to it is enough for just run 10 ct to get points and not even try hard. The less spot for getting points, the more competition is to get them and retain.
What you are describing here is an unsuccessful acount,
Really?
Or perhaps, what we can see is a manager who has planned his season and achieved a retain race finish early, so that he can then sign a new project driver with fewer skills and concentrate on training rather than retaining?
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