I agree. As an American I understand the little man getting the shaft to insure the uppers happyness. But we've all seen revenge of the nerds. Little man only takes so much haha
Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ January 20th 2017,11:37:38 )
Not entirely true, the car PHA (through CCP or parts level) can be developed to 100/100/100, but the game engine could use in calculations just the X/X/X which is the cap for the respective tier. That is not to say the car can't have more than that. It could very well be that when one promotes from Ama to Pro they'd still be capped as they could have PHA above that tier and even above that of Master.
EDIT: By cap I mean a soft cap, not a hard cap where nothing can go above a predefined number.
But why introduce a new, artificial cap when it is already capped? Possible CCP already has a "cap" due to the rate it degrades versus how fast it can be gained, and the lack of any TD. And the value for money in using testing to the maximum or not, or how high to put your car parts, is a management choice. I see no benefit or reason to put a further artificial cap in place that actually removes management choices - you want to remove the PHA benefit of higher level parts and/or CCP at Amateur level so there would be little point in spending money on them anymore, especially parts.
Once managers have built up some staff experience and staff TI the last thing they want to do is drop back to rookie as those accumulated skills will be lost. I don't think there are very many 'career rookies' are there? Is it really such a problem that it needs to be fixed?
Quote ( Andrew Watson @ January 20th 2017,11:58:10 )
Should just increase casual taxes to discourage people staying in Ama too long. Make it 50% instead of 25%.
All that would do is ensure people stay in Ama longer to build up the cash that they need when they go up. I would expect to 'pay' around 30 - 50 mil for a first season in Pro after promoting as you play catch up so limiting the cash available simply hampers those who promote when they need it most.
There has to be a level in the game where cash can be built up otherwise you won't get much change in the hierarchy.
Quote ( Mark Wright @ January 20th 2017,12:02:40 )
Quote ( Andrew Watson @ January 20th 2017,11:58:10 )
Should just increase casual taxes to discourage people staying in Ama too long. Make it 50% instead of 25%.
All that would do is ensure people stay in Ama longer to build up the cash that they need when they go up. I would expect to 'pay' around 30 - 50 mil for a first season in Pro after promoting as you play catch up so limiting the cash available simply hampers those who promote when they need it most.
There has to be a level in the game where cash can be built up otherwise you won't get much change in the hierarchy.
You wouldn't stay in Ama for longer, because the gains you get for one more season would reduce. season-to-season gains would flatline at a lower level, and the marginal gain for staying would reduce.
In general, we should find Great managers in Elite, Good ones in Master, competent ones in Pro, inexperienced ones in Ama. If the game is structured such that good managers are consistently spending time racing against inexperienced managers, then it's less fun for those inexperienced guys. And we're struggling for numbers as it is.
Perhaps a tiered structure of casual tax might be warranted, to allow some cash build-up at the higher levels. I don't think the game benefits from too much cash floating around, though. And cash management is more important than cash balance. Or should be.
Quote ( Andrew Watson @ January 20th 2017,12:06:44 )
Quote ( Andrew Watson @ January 20th 2017,11:58:10 )here seems, to my eye, to be a lot more cash kicking about the game than there was 20 seasons ago. In Ama and Pro, certainly.
Agreed there is but I wouldn't put it down to DE I would actually put it down to there being more knowledge of the game out there and players who enjoy the game staying around.
There's not been an increase in revenue for quite some time, other than DE but that's more a decrease of expenditure over time, but the additional tyres in Pro and above have brought additional expenditure. There seems to be a lot more cash in Pro nowadays due to people holding back promotion from Ama to ensure they have a good amount of cash and a package that is likely to be able to compete.
Money can only buy you so much in the game so I wouldn't strictly say that large amounts of cash guarantee you success.
I just did my first ever amateur qualification and found I am 12.8s off the pole, and I am mid pack. Isn't this too much?
Is the pace difference unrealistic, or were the expectations of the pace of the particular driver + car combination unrealistic ?
+ I would not draw too many conclusions from the qualify of one race. Might also be that the particular track accentuates the difference, not to even mention certain other things which might have quite an effect on the laptime
What I want to talk about is the pace different in group, or just one tier, says amateur.
I just did my first ever amateur qualification and found I am 12.8s off the pole, and I am mid pack. Isn't this too much?
I try to FOBY the reason and suspect it could be mainly due to big difference on car level and driver's skill among managers within a tier. For my case, it is within amateur that I found some managers own a 160+OA driver and some only own 110OA driver, or lower. About the car level, it goes as high as level 9 just in amateur.
Think that we shall start think about revise the driver OA cap for each tiers and CCP depreciation rate (raise the rate into a level where it serves as a virtual cap for ccp gain), if we want to close this pace gap within a tier.
Benefit for doing so could be making the race more interesting, making the game more difficult, making the game more realistic.
Don't think the EPL will be mush interesting if it simply always goes Liverpool 8-1 Sunderland, or Manchester U 12-0 Watford, or Chelsea 23-5 Leicester... An in fact it is not and this is possibly the reason why EPL is more watchable that the Liga eventhough EPL do not have Messi and Ronaldo. Yes, the battle is close and no big difference of team capability within a tier.
This suggestion could be harsh but worth thinking about.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but don't you think that with just 24 races and almost no knowledge of the game it is quite rude to come and say that game should change because you don't like its current state?
EDIT: If you want to become Liverpool of GPRO, start working on it instead of whining around that you're too slow and pointing to the game.
Quote ( Sam Wainwright @ January 20th 2017,11:16:52 )
We were all in amateur for the first time once. I was horribly underprepared when I got to amateur, and it didn't really hold me back very much.
The fact is that car level is capped by the fact it isn't affordable to run anything higher than you can run currently, CTs are capped by energy, driver OA is capped by not being able to renew over 110 OA, yes, you can get it to be higher but if you want to stay at the current level you won't be able to keep that driver for long.
The issue with adding even more restrictions is that at some point amateur starts to almost become a walkthrough as you can barely do anything. You're also limiting people's ability to see how important car level is, to try out long term driver training, you're basically restricting everything just to adapt the game to the small % that can't survive currently in amateur.
AND, all you'd do is move the problem on a level, as everyone promoting from amateur would be grossly underprepared for Pro, where it matters a lot more.
I think I'm done adding paragraphs now.
And the award for most sensible post goes to this man.
Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ January 20th 2017,06:16:28 )
You have a level 4 car, the 32nd best in your group. You are behind the curve and should be glad to be mid pack.
I have a level 4 car and I'm 4th in Q1... without a decent car setup too thanks to some dodgy suspension data. I'd say the OA is his main issue, assuming the stats of the driver aren't ideal too (109OA here did just fine, quite happy with the stats distribution!)
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ January 20th 2017,11:57:07 )
But why introduce a new, artificial cap when it is already capped? Possible CCP already has a "cap" due to the rate it degrades versus how fast it can be gained, and the lack of any TD. And the value for money in using testing to the maximum or not, or how high to put your car parts, is a management choice. I see no benefit or reason to put a further artificial cap in place that actually removes management choices - you want to remove the PHA benefit of higher level parts and/or CCP at Amateur level so there would be little point in spending money on them anymore, especially parts.
I know and agree with that, what I meant is that due to the way the Rookie reset works, it puts the Rookie promotee at a disadvantage. I don't think it's an insurmountable one. And as some have said above if you prepare for it, it shouldn't be too difficult.
But I gather it can be really discouraging for the majority of new players.
Take me for example. First season (55) I had no f***ing clue what I was doing (literally) for at least the first 10 races. There were very few managers (7/8) racing, and only the top 3 qualifying every race (I ended up 3rd, because I decided to go for it mainly because of the 200k penalty per point if not promoting and over 50 points, impossible not to hit that in the context). So I promoted to Ama left foot first, bad finances, bad car, bad driver. I had (almost) no chance (lost retention in the last 5 laps of the last race :P "who is Timo Glock?"), but I was aware of it. Now I get the Rookie reset. Personally I am not discouraged (completely), but I think that a lot of people would be and simply drop out.
PS: Just to clear the air. I am NOT proposing anything to be done. I do NOT want to take your CCPs away :P I am NOT angry. I am NOT discouraged. I am JUST DEBATING (civilly) what I believe is a small issue (especially with getting more new players hooked)
The problem starts at rookie... the groups are too small and not competitive. There are too many groups for the small numbers of players therefore many more players are promoting easily from an extremely weak rookie tier thinking they are doing well or for reasons stated above with penalties for not promoting when points are over 50 (easy to do with participation levels so low). I had only 6 participants at most in any one race last season, some races when only 3 competed. It's easy to get the points to promote if you're guaranteed points in races.
If the rookie groups were more competitive only the players prepared for promotion to amateur would promote and these big gaps we are seeing won't be so big from the promoting rookies.
Quote ( William Pickering @ January 20th 2017,13:13:03 )
The problem starts at rookie... the groups are too small and not competitive. There are too many groups for the small numbers of players therefore many more players are promoting easily from an extremely weak rookie tier thinking they are doing well or for reasons stated above with penalties for not promoting when points are over 50 (easy to do with participation levels so low). I had only 6 participants at most in any one race last season, some races when only 3 competed. It's easy to get the points to promote if you're guaranteed points in races.
If the rookie groups were more competitive only the players prepared for promotion to amateur would promote and these big gaps we are seeing won't be so big from the promoting rookies.
What he said. I guess reducing the Rookie group number would be more sensible and without affecting anything else.
Quote ( William Pickering @ January 20th 2017,13:13:03 )
The problem starts at rookie... the groups are too small and not competitive. There are too many groups for the small numbers of players therefore many more players are promoting easily from an extremely weak rookie tier thinking they are doing well or for reasons stated above with penalties for not promoting when points are over 50 (easy to do with participation levels so low). I had only 6 participants at most in any one race last season, some races when only 3 competed. It's easy to get the points to promote if you're guaranteed points in races.
If the rookie groups were more competitive only the players prepared for promotion to amateur would promote and these big gaps we are seeing won't be so big from the promoting rookies.
This is compensated in Ama by lower number of relegating managers.
EDIT: Basically no active manager in Ama relegates until he wishes it.
Quote ( Mark Wright @ January 20th 2017,12:14:10 )
Quote ( Andrew Watson @ January 20th 2017,12:06:44 )
Quote ( Andrew Watson @ January 20th 2017,11:58:10 )here seems, to my eye, to be a lot more cash kicking about the game than there was 20 seasons ago. In Ama and Pro, certainly.
Agreed there is but I wouldn't put it down to DE I would actually put it down to there being more knowledge of the game out there and players who enjoy the game staying around.
There's not been an increase in revenue for quite some time, other than DE but that's more a decrease of expenditure over time, but the additional tyres in Pro and above have brought additional expenditure. There seems to be a lot more cash in Pro nowadays due to people holding back promotion from Ama to ensure they have a good amount of cash and a package that is likely to be able to compete.
Money can only buy you so much in the game so I wouldn't strictly say that large amounts of cash guarantee you success.
I'd say that rather than DE or greater knowledge being the reason for swelled coffers in amateur that its owing to easier retention since in some groups only 6 will relegate - amd even then it's only 6 if there's no retirement or negative balanced. For even reasonably experienced players it makes amateur a more comfortable environment. I think this is good for newbies coming of rookie though, even if it does mean there's a lot more money floating about.
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ January 20th 2017,13:43:05 )
I'd say that rather than DE or greater knowledge being the reason for swelled coffers in amateur that its owing to easier retention since in some groups only 6 will relegate - amd even then it's only 6 if there's no retirement or negative balanced. For even reasonably experienced players it makes amateur a more comfortable environment. I think this is good for newbies coming of rookie though, even if it does mean there's a lot more money floating about.
I'd agree that's a factor as well. Not sure there is one particular reason why there is perceived to be a lot more money than previously but it's more a combination of factors.
Quote ( William Pickering @ January 20th 2017,13:13:03 )
The problem starts at rookie... the groups are too small and not competitive. There are too many groups for the small numbers of players therefore many more players are promoting easily from an extremely weak rookie tier thinking they are doing well or for reasons stated above with penalties for not promoting when points are over 50 (easy to do with participation levels so low). I had only 6 participants at most in any one race last season, some races when only 3 competed. It's easy to get the points to promote if you're guaranteed points in races.
If the rookie groups were more competitive only the players prepared for promotion to amateur would promote and these big gaps we are seeing won't be so big from the promoting rookies.
Yup, this is spot on.
I still think that staying in Rookie for too long is a waste, though. The competition is next to non-existent so even if you have a monster Rookie driver, that same driver won't be much special in Amateur -- you will be mid-pack at best.
Speaking for myself, I promoted to Amateur easily (using 0 CT mostly the whole season) and started from the bottom when I made it to Amateur. I struggled on my 1st season but I managed to retain... Because like Rosina said, you just have to be active and the retention is guaranteed.
In my opinion, you need a stronger driver, Dave. Some folks mentioned that high OA doesn't mean strong driver, and I agree with them. You just have to find THE stats that make a good Amateur driver. Observe the driver market... You will notice that some drivers get like +15 offers. Now check their stats and you will find some interesting patterns.
I just did my first ever amateur qualification and found I am 12.8s off the pole, and I am mid pack. Isn't this too much?
Keep racing and learning. Strategy would make a big difference here, too. Especially with today's temps, the differences due to tire compounds are huge. Someone doing 1 stop is going to qualify much slower than someone doing 3 stops.
On top of that, occasionally you'll have someone who is going for pole and fast lap, which would cause them to choose an unsuccessful race strategy in exchange for getting a fast lap.
And that's before you even get into the difference between cars and drivers. The guys who are going to be fighting for pole in your group will have been building themselves up in Amateur for a couple of seasons, and you're just getting started. Mid-pack is a great place to be for your first Amateur quals.
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ January 20th 2017,13:43:05 )
I'd say that rather than DE or greater knowledge being the reason for swelled coffers in amateur that its owing to easier retention since in some groups only 6 will relegate - amd even then it's only 6 if there's no retirement or negative balanced. For even reasonably experienced players it makes amateur a more comfortable environment. I think this is good for newbies coming of rookie though, even if it does mean there's a lot more money floating about.
If you look at most of the guys who have huge Ama balances, you won't see a whole lot who have retained in Ama thanks to the reduced relegations. I've seen none, in fact.
Ama has been a cash cow for ages. It's now more so as it's become pretty much impossible for an experienced manager to relegate from, and DE also lowers the cost.
I like the increased tax idea, or better an inflationary tax per season for camping - first season in a Ama you pay normal tax, every season thereafter you pay a higher tax. If you're genuinely doing your all to stay up, shouldn't affect you. If you're "preparing" by saving a massive chunk of cash, then you're not prepared anyway.
My rookie group in season 56 had the same guy win 16 of 17 races. He won most of them and lapped most of the field, I finished 2nd 12 times and he lapped me 9-10 of those. Pace differences can also be down to a manager having a good driver and able to use mid level CTR [30-50].
Quote ( Martin Rosina @ January 20th 2017,12:26:25 )
Sorry if I sound harsh, but don't you think that with just 24 races and almost no knowledge of the game it is quite rude to come and say that game should change because you don't like its current state?
Martin, please forgive me for not being able to know we also have race number cap for saying a thing about this game here in this forum :P
Quote ( Martin Rosina @ January 20th 2017,12:26:25 )
Sorry if I sound harsh, but don't you think that with just 24 races and almost no knowledge of the game it is quite rude to come and say that game should change because you don't like its current state?Martin, please forgive me for not being able to know we also have race number cap for saying a thing about this game here in this forum :P
Quote ( Shawn Simmons @ January 20th 2017,10:50:36 )
Theres only a few ways to fix this problem. Put a cap on the the car level. Put a cap on the overall. And cap the amount of seasons you can run in rookie. All ideas have been shot to shit to fix the gap between 1st and 38th place in AMA. The pure fact is in no form of motorsports is there such an extreme gap.
There's only one way to fix this problem. Put a cap on it.
# Name Time Diff 1 #12 Ray Williams 01:49.953 0 10 #616 Dave Mallin 01:58.833 8.880 20 #66 Todd Forsyth 02:03.132 13.179 30 #36 Winston Jacob 02:07.640 17.687 40 #11 Sheridan Broadbent 02:12.033 22.080
Now... I await your argument stating "oh but those are just 'amateurs' "
Compare, A41 r1 q1
Pole Pipirelli Ahmad Aloulou 1:50.495s + 0.000s 10 Pipirelli Paulo Morgado 1:53.578s + 3.083s 20 Pipirelli Richard Jones 1:55.666s + 5.171s 30 Pipirelli Jezza Fournel 2:00.361s + 9.866s 33 Pipirelli Emerson Moreno 2:02.579s + 12.084s
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