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Topik: Current situation and GPRO's future |
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Quote ( Antonio Veiga @ July 13th 2015,11:16:21 ) the possibility that a new manager can immediately join a team that is incomplete immediately. This would improve their learning.
It has the potential for slowing down their learning aswell, sadly, and creating more frustration for them if they were handed a team that is mute.
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..... or has wrong information & doesn't know what they are doing
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Quote ( Phil Maunder @ July 13th 2015,13:07:29 ) ..... or has wrong information & doesn't know what they are doing
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ July 13th 2015,11:27:57 ) Quote ( Antonio Veiga @ July 13th 2015,11:16:21 )
the possibility that a new manager can immediately join a team that is incomplete immediately. This would improve their learning.
It has the potential for slowing down their learning aswell, sadly, and creating more frustration for them if they were handed a team that is mute.
They could ask the teams are scored on a list for managers making them accept such stress upon the subject of communication. I do not think there are many teams that have the wrong idea. To create a team you have to be amateur manager. Something you need to know to get there
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You would be surprised how many teams don't communicate.
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#995 dikirim Jul 16 2015, 05:18:42 (terakhir disunting Jul 16 2015, 05:20:24 oleh Nate Beiler)
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Outside the box idea that pop into my head as I was reading through the change rookie league thread. Posting here since it's a different idea then what is being discussed there or anywhere else for that matter (I think, didn't do a forum search, please don't hurt me). I haven't fully thought this through yet, so there might be some big problems I’m overlooking. Probably too complicated to implement even if it is a fascinating idea.
THE IDEA:
Do away with rookie leagues and put all the rookies together in one pool. Each race would have appx. 20 managers. As rookie managers qualify each group would fill to the set number of competitors. At the end of qualifying the group below 20 would split randomly into other groups. This would give a few groups 21 managers racing instead of 20. That way each race rookies would have full group to compete against every race.
Group standing for rookie only would be change to a longer list of all current rookies. Promotion would be based on ranking if the season was one big race. Thus the standing would also be in that order as well. On the standing page a red line would be placed were the automatic promotions ended end and a yellow line where the estimated addition promotion spots ended. That way everyone would know how close they were to promoting. This would mean that only the fastest and hopefully most prepared manager would promote to ama.
Manager starting in the middle of the season would be given the slowest race time in rookie for all the races they missed before joining making it almost impossible to promote in the first part season you joined. Manager missing a race would be given the average race time of all rookies, thus hurting but not ruining your chance of promotion.
Points money, sponsor negotiations, the cup, and probably some other things I’m overlooking would also have to change. Not sure how any of it this would work.
Overall I think it would be a great change to liven up rookie. It would make rookie more competitive for experienced manager and give new manager something more to aim for. Also new manager would compete against different managers every race and see different strategies in action.
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First problem that comes to mind with pooling everyone in Rookie and basing promotions on an OBR basis, and I apologize if this sounds a bit harsh, would be more managers (especially inexperienced ones, but possibly the more experienced ones, too) using higher risks just to put themselves as high on that list as possible. I like where this idea is going, but let's say you were on that list by using high risk, then you end up in the negatives financially because you spent everything on car upgrades constantly. Thus, like it is now, those with that annoying orange 'N' next to their names in the OBR pool you're suggesting cannot promote. Of course, this moves the next person in line and everyone behind him/her up 1 spot, whether he/she is ready to promote to Amateur or not.
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The other problem would be as soon as you have a crash start you basically wont be able to promote...
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Nice theory Nate but the issue I have is that someone potentially winning their slow group might not promote and the opposite whereby someone in 8th in a fast group could promote. I also agree with Freddie a start crash already hurts finnacially without meaning you won't promote.
All that said I do like the ide of 'sliding' races to ensure that the races are fairly balanced and filled on a consistent basis.
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The idea sounds good but I wonder what will do to the motivation of newbies if you are in the mid table and in place 1,500. You know that whatever you do you will not suceed get any higher.
I know promotions will be up to place 1000 or more (have not done the math) yet psychologically you would feel a lot behind.
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Get in a team, pool the resources and you can come up with a setup calculator. Ok, so it takes time ... but do you really want to get the perfect setup instantly? Where's the fun then?
I absolutely agree with this. I know how rookies struggle from the word 'go'. I have been through that. We need patience overall. Some people want instant success. which is not possible at all.
Even I have seen silent teams. My first was a super silent team and it is still silent.
Learning to get set up right is fun. Its enjoyable. Setup calculators are available. We just get a guideline by it. They are not perfect. It gives outline 'how much deep we are in water'.
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Without reading 999 posts here I say if I were the owner of this game I would pull the plug..I myself get tired of reading about how this game should be changed to accommodate those who whine about the game structure. I can only imagine what a slap in the face the admins must think it has become for them after so many bash their hard work on these forums...
I say to the admins..Thankyou for the game as it is.It is quite obvious you have put so much time,thought,and effort into making a game so many enjoy.Do not ruin it by changing what does not need changed
Some people can not be satisfied no matter what is done
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The game is too much math for the casual player I think.
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Quote ( Shane Ferguson @ July 16th 2015,16:17:31 ) Without reading 999 posts here I say if I were the owner of this game I would pull the plug..I myself get tired of reading about how this game should be changed to accommodate those who whine about the game structure. I can only imagine what a slap in the face the admins must think it has become for them after so many bash their hard work on these forums...
You should at least bother to read the post numero uno before writing this.
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Quote ( Virgis Lyss @ July 28th 2015,22:45:59 ) Quote ( Shane Ferguson @ July 16th 2015,16:17:31 )
Without reading 999 posts here I say if I were the owner of this game I would pull the plug..I myself get tired of reading about how this game should be changed to accommodate those who whine about the game structure. I can only imagine what a slap in the face the admins must think it has become for them after so many bash their hard work on these forums...
You should at least bother to read the post numero uno before writing this.
A business that does not adapt, change or develop with the needs of its current or future cutomer base has no secure future. Change is a good thing but unfortunately a lot of games and businesses fear.
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If anyone could point to what changes need to be made, and why, I'm sure that something viable might get done.
IMO, it isn't the playability of the game that needs addressing; the game needs to be made more user friendly with regards newer players, whether that is through tutorials or simply a more clearly defined checklist of things to do ahead of the next race...
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I think part of the problem for new members is the sudden massive jump in the difficulty curve from Rookie to Amateur. Right now, unless a Rookie group features a relegated Amateur who has been in the game from some time dropping down to start again, its fairly easy for new members to be promoted purely by sheer participation of most races in a season. Player finishes in the top 3 and thinks "Hmm, this seems ok, I think ive got the hang of this game" only to get to Amateur and blown away by a collection of 30th places - after being with a shout of a podium this is quite a sore one to take and new members will either say "stuff it" and leave, or go back to rookie, find they can easily promote again - to get slapped with more 30th places and relegation (repeat ad nauseam) and wonder where they fit into this game before leaving due to lack of real progress.
A team may help with this if you get a good one (I have been blessed in this regard) but for every good welcoming team, theres more than a few silent ones. And to simply say "Join a team to learn the game more" is NOT helpful to relative newcomers, especially as several teams may need to be joined before finding one that actually speaks. As amateur is now choc full with players who have been in the game for many seasons (at amateur level) I am noticing the same "Yo-yo" promotions are starting to happen at Amateur level, meaning the same problem with cracking the next level is beginning here too of beating ama but pro is stuck with 30th places (I cannot comment above pro).
Solutions? Not so easy. Aside from clearing all the groups and starting again, (which even then may only work for the first 5 seasons before the current order reappears) theres no easy fix without either giving excessive help or creating a hole for more experienced players to exploit. Extra reward for promotions? New players may not know how or where to spend the money effectively and exp players would start to deliberately drop down so they can claim this. Help for next race? What is enough help? A tasklist telling them to change their Q2 settings? A chart listing the part wear for the track? There is also the whole FOBY side of the game - too much help would see some of the die-hard FOBYers up in arms.
Its a hard thing to fix. Maybe its worth asking newer members of their GPRO experneice? Maybe send a message to players who complete two full seasons of GPRO to evaluate their time? Like a survey?
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I think that the solutions are:
1. Make a intermediate group
or
2.Give $30.000.000
or
3. Make your pilot (with OA below 110)
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I have read the first post but not the 999 like Shane. I have to disagree with him from a business perspective. For any business to grow it needs to listen to it clients. You cannot make a product and then say, "There, take it or leave it". Most businesses would fail that way.
Instead for a business to succeed it must listen to it's customers on what they want and then change over time. The first order or business is not to worry about getting new clients. It is always keeping your existing clients. That has to come first. The initial players that came to the game are the ones who are really interested in the game (on average). Additional players are less and less attracted to the game and to that end, less loyal. A customer lost, seldom comes back. They move on and are lost to the detriment of the business.
You really have to decide between keeping things as they are and dieing in the end, or trying some changes for a period of time and then seeing what people think of the change. Maybe try some change for 2 seasons and then have a pole to see if you keep it, modify it or go back to the old ways. You could even have a pole on what issues to change first:
1) Overtaking: re-rate tracks one step easier for passing,
2) Reduce the effect of Motivation as you move up in the racing classes
3) Introduce some added effect for Master so it is not just a PRO II,
4) Review Drivers and TD each season and make sure there are always some good drivers to bid on (has been a problem at times in the past, but not at this time).
That is just a couple of things that come to mind that could be put on a list of things for people to vote on to change.
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You got me by the "listen to your clients" part.
Quote ( Alex Holland @ September 1st 2015,21:10:10 ) 1) Overtaking: re-rate tracks one step easier for passing,
A great move here would be to really make GPRO a "racing" game instead of the current "blocking/DMing" game it is. It's not about having 17 very easy overtaking tracks, but to be more realistic about blocking and overtaking.
Currently, GPRO is the paradise of blockers. It's more important to block and see what you get out with than running the entire field. Even when you do not wish to block, you end up blocking someone. The blocker never gets as many DMs (much less in fact) that the manager trying to overtake.
So, pushing to pass, having a DM, rowing it up all over again, push to pass, have another DM ... and then see the guy blocking suceed is quite boring over time. And it happens even in PRO already and some cases in Amateur top runners.
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Quote ( Alex Holland @ September 1st 2015,21:10:10 ) The initial players that came to the game are the ones who are really interested in the game (on average). Additional players are less and less attracted to the game and to that end, less loyal
Allowing established players to have priority in a promotion/relegation style league system is a great way to make sure that you achieve your first order of business:
Quote ( Alex Holland @ September 1st 2015,21:10:10 ) The first order or business is not to worry about getting new clients
Not really sure how it will benefit the game as a whole though.
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This is just a hope message... this is the type of game I have wanted for years, and yet I didn't find it until just recently....that being said I have been looking at how the rookie leagues are declining in participation and I just hope that this game will be around for as many years ahead as it has behind it...I know I am not a supporter right now, that has nothing to do with me wanting a free game, just money issues is all... I just hope it will keep being around.... and I am not sure how to make it more accessible without ruining the game at the same time..I have posted before how it can be quiet a shock from moving up from rookie to amateur and that might be a turn off for lots of people, but it wasn't for me I am happy to try to learn more and figure out how it all works... it was just a shock...the restart at rookie and start over again I think might be an issue too, just from my perspective... My favorite video games have always been role playing games and simulation games that let you build to the "next level" as it were but if you mess it all up you have to dig yourself out by building up with what you have that is broken.... this game is that as well once you are safely away from rookie, but the rookie reset makes it also like an action game where you run out of lives and you have to start from the beginning,which I have never been a fan of those games. I do understand that on here you can completely mess up your career and absolutely need a restart to keep from drowning, not only those that are just learning, but for those that have played awhile too...So in conclusion of this ramble **hahahaha** I love this game as it is, and I hope it stays around for a long long while more...but in some ways I do understand the struggle that some new people have with it.
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If I would be the owner of GPRO, I would clone it.
I'd give the clone name GPROForMasses, MyGPRO, GPROGarden, GPROAcademy, iGPRO or GPROid (or even make a poll to name it) and would promote it as an fully playable alternative for users with a bit different expectations from those in the original GPRO.
I'd make minor changes in the clone's algorithm (just some car engine variables?) to make it a bit incompatible - to avoid cheating users involved in the original and the clone.
In the clone I'd make any changes that would be highly accepted by the masses and could attract (and to retain) more users - but could have serious or unpredictable impact on the original GPRO.
Then I would see if any of the changes made in the clone will be suitable for the original GPRO or should stay only in the clone.
I guess this could help to save original (great!) concept of GPRO, make version playable by much more users and as a result (which is very important) generate more financial resources.
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You need financial resources to do that though, so might prove difficult.
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Quote ( Michael Winkley @ September 3rd 2015,11:03:36 ) You need financial resources to do that though, so might prove difficult.
Yes, I agree, Michael... But, from my experience, the main resources takes people's work. If they would use the same hardware or just upgrade it, it shouldn't be such a big investition as building complete new infrustructure. (I don't know HW equipment currently used to run GPRO so I just guess from what I see in our business installations.)
But OK, let's say, it's too expensive... Let's try different approach:
GPRO owners could also consider if we (managers) couldn't become (co)investors. I'm not attracted by sponsorship at the moment, but small investment is the reason to start thinking of...
...and yet another one tip from me...:
What about putting this idea on Kickstarter?
(I mean GPRO clone creation.)
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Quote ( Mike Brummert @ September 1st 2015,22:29:38 ) Quote ( Alex Holland @ September 1st 2015,21:10:10 )
The first order or business is not to worry about getting new clients
Not really sure how it will benefit the game as a whole though.
I think my main point is that more effort and resources seem to be put into getting new clients to replace the ones leaving. It is sort of like pumping in new blood to a patient while the patient bleeds out. I have been in the private industry for 30 years and you learn a few things about business and how to run a successful one along the way.
A lot of businesses get ahead of themselves and pile money into advertising and promotion before they get their product solid. Sure you get a lot of people looking at it, but they walk away and next time they hear about it they generally do not look at it a second time because of their first impression.
From the limited discussions I have read there is a real need to address the ROOKIE problem so customers that see the game, stay. Secondly you need to address the long term players who are also leaving to stem the bleeding. Efforts put into other areas is largely wasted.
I am not saying this to be mean spirited or put anyone down. I really do want the game to succeed as I have had some fun here. But I am on the edge of leaving for the same reasons of many before me. Once again some bad luck has cost me my plan and I will need 6-8 seasons (2 years playing time) to get back to the same spot as I was before. I just don't think I am willing to do that anymore. For me the game is almost done.
My suggestions are then to do the following:
Get away from some of the FOBY and list what people need to do to get out of ROOKIE and into AM. Tell them what the driver attributes do in some detail including some suggestions on what a good driver and bad driver look like. Tell them what an AM driver needs to retain in the first season. A document explaining some of this may help retain more ROOKIE managers.
Secondly make it so people leaving do not lose all their facilities, staff and everything else. At this point when you leave for a while, you lose everything and have to start over from scratch. Yes this may delay some people leaving but it certainly stops most from ever coming back. Let the staff scores slide gently and facilities slide with each passing season. let people come back in at a level lower than where they left at as part of the relegation/promotion script.
Make changes in the game that is widely disliked. My suggestion is to try re-rating each tracks OT one level lower. Do this for a season or two. I would think this change would not be too difficult to do (I think). It may help reduce a lot of frustration out there. Do not do it severely, but make it so it can be felt. Would trying it for 1-2 seasons really hurt? The key at this point is not to make it match our impressions of what an F1 race should be like. The change is to retain players.
Failure to address these points is probably the reason the game will fade with time. Listen to what the customers are telling you is paramount to a good business plan.
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Quote ( Alex Holland @ September 5th 2015,00:10:31 ) Get away from some of the FOBY and list what people need to do to get out of ROOKIE and into AM. Tell them what the driver attributes do in some detail including some suggestions on what a good driver and bad driver look like. Tell them what an AM driver needs to retain in the first season. A document explaining some of this may help retain more ROOKIE managers.
How about adding a spot for every team where only rookie members are allowed. Rookie members would need to have done less than 34 races. They would have access to team mails, but no team forum. If team would have 11th member (rookie) they would get something like 5% team bonus. Rookie would need to apply as of now, but no application would be needed, The option of rejecting or accepting a person would be like now. In case a team would lose a member, the 11th member could be accepted as a new regular team member with the penalties counted from the date he was accepted as 11th member.
Alex has some good points. FOBY might have been good earlier. Now it's about if you do well and if you will be accepted in a team who has the tools to help you. At worst you will be accepted in a team which have the tools, you know how to use them but have no idea why some other strategy seems to be better. Probably the top 150 teams already have some kind of tools which helps with the setup and other things. To build ones needs many seasons.
I can already see that there are many things to improve. For example this 'academy' manager could be used as a substitute if a member of a team leaves or misses a race.
Blah.. actually there are too many options to please everyone.
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Quote ( Alex Holland @ September 5th 2015,00:10:31 ) Failure to address these points is probably the reason the game will fade with time. Listen to what the customers are telling you is paramount to a good business plan.
Everything you suggest is just about making the game easier. There's already a mentor forum.
The game is already increasing players, they're just not increasing enough. So the fact that you or a few other people might retire is not really relevant or financially of any interest to improve it. Advertising the game to the relevant market will bring more people in and eventually maybe they can aesthetically improve the game. But making rookie easier will imo not keep new players here, they should get a message automatically directing them to mentor forums.
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I am very sorry to hear of the troubles the game is facing.
I hope everything works out for the best. This community is a very passionate bunch of people who adore the sport.
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Like some others here I havent read through the 1000+ posts but I have read through a few randoms.
My suggestion is achievements. Nearly all the games I have played in recent years have some kind of achievements in the beginning. Maybe its something this games could use. Give rookies achievements to aim for besides aiming for am. And reward them for achieving them with each achievement harder to achieve.
I have suggested this with no idea how or what to do lol. I am not an expert in such matters. but i have played many many many games and this is one thing that is pretty consistent throughout.
Good luck to the admin and all of the community here. I personally am loving this game so far :)
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Quote ( Jay Larner @ September 5th 2015,03:22:12 ) Like some others here I havent read through the 1000+ posts but I have read through a few randoms.
My suggestion is achievements. Nearly all the games I have played in recent years have some kind of achievements in the beginning. Maybe its something this games could use. Give rookies achievements to aim for besides aiming for am. And reward them for achieving them with each achievement harder to achieve.
I have suggested this with no idea how or what to do lol. I am not an expert in such matters. but i have played many many many games and this is one thing that is pretty consistent throughout.
Good luck to the admin and all of the community here. I personally am loving this game so far :)
Glad you like it.
I like the idea of a rewards system for attaining certain achievements. For one, it gives new players something to look forward to. Currently, to the best of my knowledge, there is no such program rewarding players for achieving milestones.
I myself have left this game/community several times for varying reasons. but come back just the same. But progression here can be slow for many.
Quote ( Finn Shaw-McIver @ September 5th 2015,02:30:19 ) Everything you suggest is just about making the game easier.
Not necessarily, but I will agree that it is one of the reasons that many don't stay long. Adversity is what you make of it.
Quote ( Finn Shaw-McIver @ September 5th 2015,02:30:19 ) But making rookie easier will imo not keep new players here, they should get a message automatically directing them to mentor forums.
damn these 8 windows. Anyway, that would help keep more players stay, but how many will actually use them (mentor forums)?
I've been here off/on since November 2008, but have not ascended past the Amateur level. If I were looking at it from a purely competitive point of view, then I wouldn't've come back as many times as I did. It's similar to how Jensen & Alonso are presently looking at their '15 F1 campaign, albeit minus the fact that I most likely will never reach Pro. Let alone anything higher than that.
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