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Topik: Pit Stop Planning |
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#1 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 20:40:21
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Hello everyone,
while I was preparing myself for the upcoming Bremgarten GP, I came up with an idea that would give managers more freedom in terms of planning strategy and scheduling pit stops.
My idea is to expand "Fuel strategy" segment and enable an option to have different fuel settings for a certain pit stop based on the Pit Stop Reason.
An example to clarify with 2 scenarios. Let's say we have a 1 hour race with the following forecast: - Start - 0h30m, Rain probability: 0% - 0h30m - 1h, Rain probability: 50%
One common approach to that kind of a race would be to extend Stint 1 in order to maximize a chance of being caught by rain, pit for Rain tyres and go to the end with only 1 pit stop in a race.
Scenario 1: Rain hits at 0h30m mark. You are caught in the middle of extended Stint 1, pit for Rain tyres, put enough fuel to go to the end (e.g. Fuel after stop 1: 90 liters)
Scenario 2: It stays Dry for the whole race. After completing extended Stint 1 and pitting (e.g. at 0h45m) you put the same amount of fuel as in previous scenario and end up with a heavy load of unnecessary fuel, which costs you in lap times and race position.
I would love to have a mechanism that enables me to put different amounts of fuel, while taking Pit Stop Reason into consideration, which could look like this: - Fuel after Stop 1 (No more fuel/tyres): 45 liters - addresses Scenario 2 - Fuel after Stop 1 (Weather change): 90 liters - addresses Scenario 1
Potential benefits: - Since real life racing strategists are able to construct different strategy scenarios, which are influenced by a major factor - weather change, it is logical to have us GPRO managers have an opportunity to do the same - It could potentially reduce the amount of strategy collapses - some GPRO races are so complicated and unpredictable that preparing a strategy for one scenario and one scenario only gives little chance of actually predicting the correct one. This mechanism could provide more flexibility, especially in non-obvious races - It could nicely rely on the "Pitstop reason" variables, which are already in the game, as seen in Race Analysis Page - It has a potential to be expanded and possibly be a tool to solve some pit stop strategy collapses, which are caused by randoms. An option of Fuel Input (Pitting for technical issue) could be implemented - Would nicely look in a game like GPRO, which is heavily strategy oriented and based on long-term planning - Favors manager's planning skills and time spent on preparation over luck and randomness - Would not cause a major game change that everyone needs to adapt to
Potential cons: - Could be somewhat complicated for the beginners, although the game itself looks quite scary in the beginning anyway even as it is today :D - Not sure if it would require a major game system overhaul
Let me know what is your opinion about all of it. Is it even necessary to have an option like this? Or maybe it only looks good on paper but might turn out to be not so popular after all? Feel free to comment :)
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#2 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 21:29:43
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I think I understand the idea, it looks really nice.
But, what if you complete the extended Stint 1, make your pit (no more fuel/tyres) by refueling 45 liters, and one lap after that, it starts to rain, so you need to change your tyres.
What would be the amount of liters to refuel after stop 2? 90 liters? 45 liters?
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#3 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 21:45:34
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Quote ( Matías Alloatti @ April 6th 2020,21:29:43 ) I think I understand the idea, it looks really nice.
But, what if you complete the extended Stint 1, make your pit (no more fuel/tyres) by refueling 45 liters, and one lap after that, it starts to rain, so you need to change your tyres.
What would be the amount of liters to refuel after stop 2? 90 liters? 45 liters?
In that case it would refuel the amount specified in Fuel after stop 2 (Weather change). One could potentially prepare a fuel strategy for this additional pit stop to minimize damage.
In case of not putting anything in "Fuel after stop 2" the same system that is in place today could be used: "If you specify 0 then the fuel set for the prior pit (or the start) will be used". Therefore it would take the same amount as in previous pit and take an amount from Fuel after stop 1 (Weather change) since this is the pit reason so 90 liters to be precise.
I'm not saying that this system would solve every situation like that. There's still a huge possibility of having a strategy collapse, especially if you're unlucky to have pitted 1 lap before weather change It would simply give us a tool to at least try and react to it - not necessarily be successful with it every time.
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#4 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 21:48:35
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One of the best thought out ideas I've seen here in years.
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#5 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 22:01:40
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Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) Potential cons: - Could be somewhat complicated for the beginners, although the game itself looks quite scary in the beginning anyway even as it is today :D - Not sure if it would require a major game system overhaul
Good idea. In order not to frighten the rookies you could insert this type of strategy from the pro, together with the TD or Amateur...
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#6 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 22:48:32
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I'm quite new to the game but I really like your idea. Anytyhing that can make the game closer to the real life is always a good starting point for discussions.
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#7 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 23:15:52
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I agree with your idea. I thought of something like that, but I didn't know how to put it here. Let's hope that those in charge appreciate the idea very carefully.
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Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) Let me know what is your opinion about all of it. Is it even necessary to have an option like this? Or maybe it only looks good on paper but might turn out to be not so popular after all? Feel free to comment :) ok, I think it's nicely... ... typed :)
But I do think it's unnecessary
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) - Since real life racing strategists are able to construct different strategy scenarios, which are influenced by a major factor - weather change, it is logical to have us GPRO managers have an opportunity to do the same we can already do that. Consider different scenarios and choose.
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) some GPRO races are so complicated and unpredictable that preparing a strategy for one scenario and one scenario only gives little chance of actually predicting the correct one. Some... but very few. Many of them aren't really all that unpredictable
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) This mechanism could provide more flexibility The mechanism could provide the flexibility the manager lacks in the current system, so it could turn out to reduce the skill needed from the manager.
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) - Favors manager's planning skills Don't you mean it would compensate for the managers lack of planning for a flexible strategy
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#9 dikirim Apr 6 2020, 23:29:15
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Just to be clear, @Mikołaj Dudek (P8), you suggest to have entry values for fuel in each pitstop. One for no more tyre/fuel and another for weather change. I agree with you that is a nice idea but it needs more evaluation. for example, what happen when you enter for a tyre puncture or technical problem? Which value has to be used?
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 6th 2020,23:25:42 ) Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
Let me know what is your opinion about all of it. Is it even necessary to have an option like this? Or maybe it only looks good on paper but might turn out to be not so popular after all? Feel free to comment :) ok, I think it's nicely... ... typed :)
But I do think it's unnecessary
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
- Since real life racing strategists are able to construct different strategy scenarios, which are influenced by a major factor - weather change, it is logical to have us GPRO managers have an opportunity to do the same we can already do that. Consider different scenarios and choose.
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
some GPRO races are so complicated and unpredictable that preparing a strategy for one scenario and one scenario only gives little chance of actually predicting the correct one. Some... but very few. Many of them aren't really all that unpredictable
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
This mechanism could provide more flexibility The mechanism could provide the flexibility the manager lacks in the current system, so it could turn out to reduce the skill needed from the manager.
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
- Favors manager's planning skills Don't you mean it would compensate for the managers lack of planning for a flexible strategy
Nailed it Mikko in one succinct post, especially the last 2 points, thank you :)
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Great idea, but probably won't be implemented because this game hasn't changed very much over the seasons. I don't think it is scary for beginners, because it makes sense to anyone that has watched a race with refuel/tyre changes.
My opinion is probably useless because I literally just spend 5 minutes a day on this site (if that), the race itself is fun, nevertheless I watch on 3x speed.
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 6th 2020,23:25:42 ) Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
- Since real life racing strategists are able to construct different strategy scenarios, which are influenced by a major factor - weather change, it is logical to have us GPRO managers have an opportunity to do the same
we can already do that. Consider different scenarios and choose.
We can do that only to a limited extent. While preparing yourself for 2 different outcomes of 1 variable, it is illogical to be forced to just one of the strategies. Consider being a racing strategist, which GPRO is a great simulation of. Since you are aware of what your 2 strategies for 2 different outcomes shall be, it is foolish to throw one away come racing time just because you've decided to go with the other before the race (in GPRO reality in Race setup & strategy)
I believe being able to react to the events unfolding during the race (without a need of being actually online during it) is something that many people would be fond of and this could be a potential step in that direction.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 6th 2020,23:25:42 ) Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
some GPRO races are so complicated and unpredictable that preparing a strategy for one scenario and one scenario only gives little chance of actually predicting the correct one.
Some... but very few. Many of them aren't really all that unpredictable
Contrary, it could make some presumably linear races more exciting and unpredictable. Take a race with 5-10% chance of rain which is very common. Common sense would suggest to prepare your strategy for the quickest dry strategy and setup possible. However, such races may turn out to have short rain periods as the % says. Having such system would promote managers who took their time to construct a suitable strategy accordingly and have benefits of better race position because of thinking of it.
Now take the same example in the current system. Majority if not all competitors would logically set themselves for dry strategy. Having an unexpected rain period would ruin everyone's perfect strategy. Some would gain, some would lose, the field would shake up. The problem is that it's based on luck and randomness rather than player's skill to predict such events.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ April 6th 2020,23:25:42 ) Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 )
This mechanism could provide more flexibility
The mechanism could provide the flexibility the manager lacks in the current system, so it could turn out to reduce the skill needed from the manager.
Or it could enhance chances of managers who are eager to put more effort in preparing their strategies for the race, predicting different scenarios and reacting accordingly. Ultimately it could reduce the effect of luck/randomness and promote managers with higher managerial skills and better in-game pace.
Quote ( Gastón Paris @ April 6th 2020,23:29:15 ) Just to be clear, @Mikołaj Dudek (P8), you suggest to have entry values for fuel in each pitstop. One for no more tyre/fuel and another for weather change. I agree with you that is a nice idea but it needs more evaluation. for example, what happen when you enter for a tyre puncture or technical problem? Which value has to be used?
Great point, it would definitely need to be evaluated and adjusted to other mechanisms. The perfect way would be to have a third option for such occurrences, as it is the only other Pit Stop Reason available I believe. Other solutions could be fixing it to one type, although it might be quite unfair and basically change nothing in terms of race strategies ruined by randoms since it basically works like that currently. The "randoms" problem is sort of different as it is designed to shake up your race strategy with unexpected issues. You can't really prepare for it, don't know when it might happen, have no control over it.
Nevertheless I'm open for suggestions regarding this issue, what's your opinion on it Gastón?
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Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 7th 2020,01:00:43 ) Contrary, it could make some presumably linear races more exciting and unpredictable. Oh boy how wrong I think you are.
Your presumption that it would make more unpredictable races is as far from correct as one can be.
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 7th 2020,01:00:43 ) Common sense would suggest to prepare your strategy for the quickest dry strategy and setup possible. However, such races may turn out to have short rain periods as the % says. Having such system would promote managers who took their time to construct a suitable strategy accordingly and have benefits of better race position because of thinking of it.
That system would actually do the exact opposite, it would promote the managers who do not construct suitable strategy accordingly, they would just rely on multiple options to do the trick instead.
It's pretty much the same as the claim that "2 tire compounds in race" would make things more unpredictable and exiting, when in reality everyone would choose extrasoft for qualify, and then the "real race tyre".
Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 7th 2020,01:00:43 ) Having such system would promote managers who took their time to construct a suitable strategy accordingly and have benefits of better race position because of thinking of it.
Let's face it, your suggestion would actually reduce the need for that^^
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It is a really great idea. I support it.
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I do not think it necessary since the manangers who take advantage of these races to get a decent position and maintain the category would lose at least the opportunity to have that gram of luck in the season
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Quote ( Mikołaj Dudek @ April 6th 2020,20:40:21 ) Is it even necessary to have an option like this? In short, I think the answer is no.
To elaborate; basically, what you are trying to do is run a strategy on a harder compound (extend your stints) whilst not having the associated disadvantage of carrying the extra fuel.
In your example, the trade off for running that long first stint is that, if the rain comes late (or you reach your pit stop, in the case it stays dry), you have more fuel on board for the second stint. Of course, you need more fuel on board to cover the possibility that the rain comes early.
The skill here comes in getting the balance right; do you put in enough fuel to cover every eventuality, or do you cover 90% of the possible outcomes, and take a chance? Or, indeed, do you bank on a particular strategy, knowing that, if the weather fits what you have chosen, you'll do very well, but have a high probability of it all going wrong?
With your proposal, you are (I suspect inadvertently) explicitly defining the "best" strategy, and all those who can identify it will be on the same strategy; thus more predictable racing.
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I don’t think this would improve the game, rather simplify strategy (while adding additional prep) and take away advantages of extra knowledge and understanding of the weather system. It would also raise additional issues on a slippery slope towards managing tyre life or adjusting fuelling to avoid extra stops, adapting pit strategy when being blocked on track, managing energy use depending on race circumstances, etc. I don’t think any additional ‘layers’ are required right now.
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Something simpler.
A second option for fuel from the first pit stop, and all the following pit stops, linked to Rain conditions.
Being the current fuel option for Dry weather. You know what dry tires you want, you just don't know when and if it's going to rain and what amount of fuel to put on what pit stop.
So, if it's dry you put X fuel and if it's rain you put Y fuel for every pit stop.
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Quote ( Zé Pedro Paula @ April 8th 2020,17:35:17 ) Something simpler.
A second option for fuel from the first pit stop, and all the following pit stops, linked to Rain conditions.
Being the current fuel option for Dry weather. You know what dry tires you want, you just don't know when and if it's going to rain and what amount of fuel to put on what pit stop.
So, if it's dry you put X fuel and if it's rain you put Y fuel for every pit stop.
EDIT: So, if it's dry you put X fuel and if it's rain you put Y fuel for EACH pit stop.
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#21 dikirim Apr 9 2020, 12:45:05 (terakhir disunting Apr 9 2020, 12:46:50 oleh Ben Gladwyn)
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I'm not sure I'm understanding all these things...
Allow me one question, please: why would you fix something which is not broken?
The game is difficult for all of us and that's not a reason to make it easier to all of us as there is no guarantee that the game would be more attractive, not guarantee at all...
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Quote ( Pierre Lisbonis @ April 9th 2020,14:45:50 ) Allow me one question, please: why would you fix something which is not broken?
I think his proposal is not trying to fix anything.
It just changes the game philosophy.
I highly agree with Mark saying this:
Quote ( Mark Pinnick @ April 7th 2020,09:15:19 ) The skill here comes in getting the balance right; do you put in enough fuel to cover every eventuality, or do you cover 90% of the possible outcomes, and take a chance? Or, indeed, do you bank on a particular strategy, knowing that, if the weather fits what you have chosen, you'll do very well, but have a high probability of it all going wrong?
With your proposal, you are (I suspect inadvertently) explicitly defining the "best" strategy, and all those who can identify it will be on the same strategy; thus more predictable racing.
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So a lot of people would like it, and also a lot wouldn't.
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a clear no from me for this suggestion because it takes away the possible surprise in a race.
nobody knows when it starts or stops raining..... this is the challenge for everyone, some get it right, some don't. This could even cause the fastest driver in your group ending up 20th instead of winning all races. thats the fun part of rain races (although i hate them, its still fun).. and after a while you learn how to work with these predictions (or a teammate might know)
with your suggestion the player with the best package and driver will have another advantage against his opponents
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Quote ( Pierre Lisbonis @ April 9th 2020,14:45:50 ) I'm not sure I'm understanding all these things...
Allow me one question, please: why would you fix something which is not broken?
The game is difficult for all of us and that's not a reason to make it easier to all of us as there is no guarantee that the game would be more attractive, not guarantee at all...
As a SIMULATION game, and in this matter, to rain or not to rain, is completely broken.
First real life managers, plan what to do WHEN the weather changes, this is what is all about, a BETTER planning setup. And this won't be possible, real life managers can adapt in real time. This wouldn't have a fix.
Bring more REAL LIFE SIMULATION to the game.
Or it will brake all those linked spreadsheets weaved for long long years and the spider will get entangled in the multidimensional spider web?
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Quote ( Patrick Paarhuis @ April 9th 2020,15:24:58 ) nobody knows when it starts or stops raining..... this is the challenge for everyone, some get it right, some don't.
For that I play Poker.
Actually I think I know how the pros know if it's going to rain or not on a 60%-70% probability of rain but that's not even the issue. I want to plan different fuel quantity for dry or wet.
But will probably will have to become a expert in moist before that happen.
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Quote ( Ben Gladwyn @ April 9th 2020,12:45:05 ) https://imgur.com/a/PpWowYJ
[img] tag don't work for me, I'm probably not worthy. It's a quick lash up of the pit stop settings form.
Exactly, as simple as that. I bet Mercedes have one of those. Actually, only Formula E hasn't one of those.
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Quote ( Zé Pedro Paula @ April 9th 2020,17:28:37 ) As a SIMULATION game, and in this matter, to rain or not to rain, is completely broken.
First real life managers, plan what to do WHEN the weather changes, this is what is all about, a BETTER planning setup. And this won't be possible, real life managers can adapt in real time. This wouldn't have a fix.
Bring more REAL LIFE SIMULATION to the game.
Or it will brake all those linked spreadsheets weaved for long long years and the spider will get entangled in the multidimensional spider web?
First off, Zé Pedro Paula, try to refrain from multi-posting within an half hour of your previous post. Try to get used to using the edit button ... Next, as a new manager to the game I welcome you! We always welcome the willing and able and especially in these times. However, as you have only completed 7 races, it's quiet forward, not to say aggressive, to state the game is broken and SHOUTING on top of that as well ...
In short, this whole discussion has been chewed on so many times already and it's seldom bringing new insights. In order to maybe have a better understanding of the game, it's played worldwide. Hence, in approx. 1/3 of the world the races are driven when people are actually asleep. This is why we are unable to perform LIVE alterations during the races. The thought that this game has to move closer to real life, is also faulty as this was and never has been a goal for the game. If you have read all the beginner guides and help topics, you would have come across that statement mad by the game creators.
Many managers have come to the forum stating this or that was wrong/faulty/broken is the game. Almost as many times the reasoning behind these "conclusions" or opinions, were bad results in their personal results ... We all know the game is hard and it does take time and a lot of effort to master it. I personally will be driving my 200th race shortly, and I'm still learning a lot every race. For me it's all about how you approach the game, much like any other game. The stage is set, the variables are provided, now you have to make it work! It's like when you were a baby, I bet you did not get up one day and started walking instantly, most likely you fell down many times and got up again, and here you are ... (not forgetting about those in a wheelchair, etc) ... So get in there and give it your best shot, analyse the results, evaluate, re-adjust and try again!
The game is good fun as it is, and yes sometimes changes will be incorporated. However, these changes will never happen to better the individual but only to better the game. So open up and try the helicopter view first before coming in, still wet behind the ears and stating the game is broken ... seriously! Try to find yourself a mentor, or possibly join a team. Both option will allow you to make good use of experiences other than your own. If you don't want to put in the time and effort to gain your good results, and feeling good about it even it it was just baby-steps, maybe it isn't the right game for you to play ...
Next entries, please get back to the topic of this thread as posted by Mikołaj Dudek ... even though I am not for the idea with all due respect.
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I think Mikko hit the nail on the head, it would simply make strategy in unpredictable races a lot easier, hence requiring less player skill.
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