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What scenario would you prefer?
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Topik: Make ALL staff offers private |
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#1 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 14:21:28 (terakhir disunting Nov 18 2020, 14:24:07 oleh Ivan Silva)
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In the aftermath of the recent announcement regarding staff market changes and the forum discussions it has already caused i would like to suggest the following alternative:
MAKING ALL STAFF OFFERS PRIVATE
Does not favour / unfavour any time zones
We will not complain about having to bid too soon because we cant show up at deadline time.
We will not need to ask a team mate to holiday us just to get advantage of the staff market deadlines when we're not available
We wouldnt need the adition of staff increments in the last 8 hours before the deadline.
Makes bidding an independant decision
When we set deadlines, the most experienced players will take advantage of it and wait until the time limit to place any bids. This gives the manager more information about the previous number of bids and will have direct effect on their decision towards the ammount of money they are bidding
Setting a no-increment deadline will only move the timing on which people perform this biddings, will not stop the people from taking the most out of the time available to bid as long as they know how many opponents they have.
Similar situation to what used to happen with Tyre decisions in Elite and Master, even if they had to do 1 race without 100% energy they would wait until the deadline to see what tyre brands the other managers were choosing and they would take that in consideration when choosing their own brand. Now they take in consideration how many people bid to make their own bids.
(discussion please)
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#2 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 14:52:42
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With having everything private you'll loose a bit the transparancy of how popular a certain driver is. If you see a driver now which has 10+ bids on it, you know that the chance is quite big that you might not get him, so you'll look for a backup driver which has no bids yet. If everything is private, you'll have to figure out yourself if a certain driver would be popular or not.
I think a lot of people would be frustrated because they didn't get the driver they wanted again. There is also quite a big chance that your backupdriver might have a lot of bids as well.
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#3 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 14:58:07
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There has been 1 staff decision so far, humans are naturally resistant to change, at least give this change an entire season before people start asking for changes.
I think change is good for the game and support mixing things up now and then.
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#4 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 15:05:45
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In rookie and amateur (the only markets I can talk about), making all offers private would be irrelevant IMO. The market madness in rookie and amateur is quite crazy, and some guys can place huge bids in drivers that don't have anything special.
I think that's beause the rookie and amateur markets are already quite unpredictable that private offers are not possible in those categories. If I'd have to get a driver in an amateur market where all bids are hidden, I think I'd have to get something like 10 back-up drivers to be sure of having one (probably even more in rookie...)
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#5 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 15:12:56
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Would also like the offers to be private.
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Quote ( Ivan Silva @ November 18th 2020,14:21:28 )
MAKING ALL STAFF OFFERS PRIVATE
Is a good idea i think
Quote ( Frederik Broux @ November 18th 2020,14:52:42 ) With having everything private you'll loose a bit the transparancy of how popular a certain driver is. If you see a driver now which has 10+ bids on it, you know that the chance is quite big that you might not get him, so you'll look for a backup driver which has no bids yet. If everything is private, you'll have to figure out yourself if a certain driver would be popular or not.
I think a lot of people would be frustrated because they didn't get the driver they wanted again. There is also quite a big chance that your backupdriver might have a lot of bids as well.
Well, if i haven't misunderstood, Ivan suggested something like Tyre decision in Elite, they're secret but you can see that there's a selection. Maybe when someone bid for a driver, there can appear an unknown manager in the bids list then.
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#7 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 15:25:55
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Targetting drivers/TDs who don't have any competition and getting them cheaper is a legitimate strategy and private-only bids would eliminate that. I sometimes make a 'safety net' bid on a TD with no offers in case I miss out on my top targets. Having private bids would take that away.
Another player taking a TD/Driver that no-one else appears to be interested in is hardly an element of the game that seems important to outlaw - it is one of the least intrusive ways of playing - but it could really hurt people who end up missing out on staff completely as a result. As in, it could hurt them so badly they want to quit the game. That is not good.
To be honest even the latest rule runs that risk a little, but at least you still have some information to assess your options with.
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#8 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 15:28:04
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i would also like ALL offers private - stop the guys that dont know much about which are decent and which needs a lot of work from seeing 5+ bids on a driver then coming and offering rediculous salaries on those drivers -- then taking that decent driver and making him useless with wrong training
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#9 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 15:29:48 (terakhir disunting Nov 18 2020, 15:30:48 oleh Tibor Szuromi)
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My humble opinion:
In many changes, I don’t know what a good solution would be.
I think any innovation should serve to make the game popular.
I have a bad experience as we brainstorm, vote and don’t even get feedback on why these suggestions are not good / constructive / acceptable.
I do not understand the introduction of the time-bid amount function.
I think that in the absence of an “explanation” (sorry if it was and I didn’t come across it), its purpose isn’t even understandable (if it’s not just about withdrawing money in the lower classes).
The game is limited due to time zones. (It is not possible to use online items in the race).
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Quote ( Ivan Silva @ November 18th 2020,14:21:28 ) MAKING ALL STAFF OFFERS PRIVATE
Worst... idea... ever !
Why ? I can describe it in sentence: The need (have to) use "hire bad driver immediately" would increase to the extreme and leave many more people without TD (even if they would want a TD)
If you still don't' get it, re-read post #7
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in rookie everyone is crazy about the first driver market I don't know why?
last season before race 13, I shortlisted around 26 drivers in rookie which are quite decent drivers to make you win if you do all things right for rookie all below 85 oa , most of them around 80-82 or below it.
I got a good one for 500k, but when I made the bid none of the other 25 had a single bid on it, I followed most of them every staff market till race 17 and most of them didn't receive a single offer till then.
Now comes season 79 race 1 first driver market and surprisingly around half of them get an offer and are paid very high salaries compared to the driver asking salary. Most of them around 600k or 700k, some of them even 900k. Now even after the first driver market one of the drivers now has 10 offers already and few others have offered too.
This shows rookie drivers are truly crazy and strange, most of them look for drivers only before race 1 of the season.
So if offers are made private probably this will have a positive effect on the rookie as most managers look for the most demanded driver in the market thinking it must be very good and offer him while the same driver earlier had 0 offers.
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Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 18th 2020,15:41:09 ) This shows rookie drivers are truly crazy and strange, most of them look for drivers only before race 1 of the season.
So if offers are made private probably this will have a positive effect on the rookie as most managers look for the most demanded driver in the market thinking it must be very good and offer him while the same driver earlier had 0 offers.
OR it would have a massive negative impact as most managers in rookie go after OA85, so if all offers were private they might all go after top 4 OA85s, and then no-one would get a drivers and no-one would know why
well, 4 managers (out of all rookie) would get a driver and the rest... hundreds if not thousands of managers would be forced to use "hire bad driver immediately"
ps. 4 is obviously exaggeration, but you do get to what I'm getting at with this example
ps2. similar thing would probably happen in other groups too, to some extent
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Quote ( Tibor Szuromi @ November 18th 2020,15:29:48 )
I do not understand the introduction of the time-bid amount function.
I think that in the absence of an “explanation” (sorry if it was and I didn’t come across it), its purpose isn’t even understandable (if it’s not just about withdrawing money in the lower classes).
The game is limited due to time zones. (It is not possible to use online items in the race). Completion:I prefer Jukka Sireni (admin) solution: from 0h. Unfortunately, I can't find the graph posted, and the admin line can't find him either).
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#14 dikirim Nov 18 2020, 16:01:43 (terakhir disunting Nov 18 2020, 16:12:05 oleh Ivan Silva)
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ November 18th 2020,15:35:58 ) Worst... idea... ever !
Why ? I can describe it in sentence: The need (have to) use "hire bad driver immediately" would increase to the extreme and leave many more people without TD (even if they would want a TD)
If you still don't' get it, re-read post #7
That depends on the individual behaviour of the people. You can always offer a backup short contract on a relatively weaker driver and not end up having to push the "bad driver" button. Same for TD's, there's a ton of TD's under the OA limits that get no bids.
Quote ( Frederik Broux @ November 18th 2020,14:52:42 ) With having everything private you'll loose a bit the transparancy of how popular a certain driver is. If you see a driver now which has 10+ bids on it, you know that the chance is quite big that you might not get him, so you'll look for a backup driver which has no bids yet. If everything is private, you'll have to figure out yourself if a certain driver would be popular or not.
I think a lot of people would be frustrated because they didn't get the driver they wanted again. There is also quite a big chance that your backupdriver might have a lot of bids as well.
if you wanna measure popularity there could be a reveal on who bids on which drivers after the deadline.
About missing the backup bids, once again, depends on what you define as a backup. Is changing the backup concept that rough to everyone?
Quote ( Andy Goodall @ November 18th 2020,14:58:07 ) There has been 1 staff decision so far, humans are naturally resistant to change, at least give this change an entire season before people start asking for changes.
I think change is good for the game and support mixing things up now and then.
My idea was not to resist to change, i just think this change is very insignificant for me and much more significant for other people. Change should be equal for everyone.
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Quote ( Twig Fahaji @ November 18th 2020,15:25:55 ) Another player taking a TD/Driver that no-one else appears to be interested in is hardly an element of the game that seems important to outlaw - it is one of the least intrusive ways of playing - but it could really hurt people who end up missing out on staff completely as a result. As in, it could hurt them so badly they want to quit the game. That is not good.
I'll agree with that quote. It is good that private offers are possible but not mandatory.
It's also necessary that it's forbidden in lower classes. I learnt a lot in my first steps into the game thanks to the market. I also learnt from mistakes and when I lost market battles. I learnt to target lower OA drivers and to evaluate their "value". It's an excellent learning tool that mustn't be removed, the market is open data that allows newbies like me to FOBM and understand drivers a bit more.
And if you want to make a sneaky offer invisible in higher classes, you can !
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Quote ( Stéphane Rombaux @ November 18th 2020,16:04:58 ) I'll agree with that quote. It is good that private offers are possible but not mandatory.
It's also necessary that it's forbidden in lower classes.
If this was to be applied it had to be applied to every tier of the game since guys from higher classes can bid on drivers from the lower classes.
If the issue is the first steps in the game i honestly believe its very unlikely that your first offer will have much competition in the market.
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Quote ( Ivan Silva @ November 18th 2020,16:01:43 ) You can always offer a backup short contract on a relatively weaker driver and not end up having to push the "bad driver" button
And if you wouldn't know if that driver/td already has offers, the "backup" value would be invalidated
Point being, with the current way (showing offers) it works in two ways,
1) you can choose your backup offer to a driver/td who has no offers yet
2) it can act as "deterrent" for future backup offers to that same driver/td one has already offered (encouraging to make backup offer to another one)
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Quote ( Twig Fahaji @ November 18th 2020,15:25:55 ) Targetting drivers/TDs who don't have any competition and getting them cheaper is a legitimate strategy and private-only bids would eliminate that. I sometimes make a 'safety net' bid on a TD with no offers in case I miss out on my top targets. Having private bids would take that away.
Another player taking a TD/Driver that no-one else appears to be interested in is hardly an element of the game that seems important to outlaw - it is one of the least intrusive ways of playing - but it could really hurt people who end up missing out on staff completely as a result. As in, it could hurt them so badly they want to quit the game. That is not good.
To be honest even the latest rule runs that risk a little, but at least you still have some information to assess your options with.
I agree with a lot of this.
However they have moved the goals posts to 8 hrs earlier. I just dont see how this improves the game unless it was intended for people to spend way more money. Salaries will likely go up, offer prices are stupidly high if you want to guarantee a driver or TD. Im fully aware we can put backup bids in. But you potentially have the situation where you could he trumped in all 4 bids if someone is willing to wait longer (DA issue springs to mind for starters)
I like the idea of bidding wars and making it more competitive but the price of the increase is stupidly high. So for this I dont see how it improves the game because 300 people world wide cant get on before the deadline. Everyone else can. Even people in the UK work and can't get on jusy before deadline.
Maybe make all offers blind from 8hrs from deadline when first increment hits. However I would still say the amount needed reducing to 2m.
4m is a huge amount of money to guarantee a driver.
Let's look at what will happen. Everyone puts say 3 bids in before 8 hrs to deadline 1.5m. Then leave 1 free incase multiple bids go on their drivers. 5 mins before deadline they then bid to guarantee a driver. Thats 5.5m
Its stupidly high to secure a driver and then a TD every season. Thats scandalous.
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I never saw why this change was needed in the first place - if anything the value of drivers without an offer should go down not up. Simple demand-supply principle. Making offers private will just mean everyone wastes money on drivers they don't know are being contested. Have to say there seems to be a lack of restraint on new changes being implemented without the consent of the player base. Change for the sake of change is not warranted. I would like to see a more democratic procedure in place in future.
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I honestly believe the one thing that would happen would be that a lot of people would bid on the 10-15 same drivers, and many guys would end up "hiring a bad driver" at least for a few races. Having a good visibility on the market allows to hire backup drivers by another way than "luckily nobody took that one"
And yes, my first offer didn't have competition in the market, because I targeted who I thought was a decent one with no competition. How did I first know who was a good one ? I looked at the most targeted drivers and champions from previous season, and some guides, and so on...
I don't think learning to hire a driver blindly is something that's very funny in lower classes.
And btw I was speaking exactly about how the market is today - possibility of hiding an offer in higher classes, visible offers in lower classes. I don't know what proportion of managers do hide their offers in higher classes but at least they have the possibility at some cost. They'll likely do that even more now that it represents a smaller cost compared to the late increments. You still need to gamble on 0-offer or 1-offer drivers if "is there someone who's sneaky on that one or not ?" I do agree, though, that with 100% hidden offers there's no point to having offer fee increments (the fees could have been more progressive, something like +10% each hour in the last 12 hours).
But who said that it actually is a worse thing ?
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Quote ( Michael Keeney @ November 18th 2020,16:17:47 ) Maybe make all offers blind from 8hrs from deadline when first increment hits. However I would still say the amount needed reducing to 2m.
That's maybe a hybrid solution. With the more progressive increments I proposed, it would fit.
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ November 18th 2020,15:46:37 ) OR it would have a massive negative impact as most managers in rookie go after OA85, so if all offers were private they might all go after top 4 OA85s, and then no-one would get a drivers and no-one would know why
well, 4 managers (out of all rookie) would get a driver and the rest... hundreds if not thousands of managers would be forced to use "hire bad driver immediately"
ps. 4 is obviously exaggeration, but you do get to what I'm getting at with this example
ps2. similar thing would probably happen in other groups too, to some extent
How about we make driver offers work like sponsor negotiations, so it doesn't exactly show how many people are trying to get that driver, but shows that the driver is being contested.
I don't feel like this is a complete solution, but I think it'd be better than what we have now..
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Quote ( Geir Pukk @ November 18th 2020,16:38:38 ) How about we make driver offers work like sponsor negotiations, so it doesn't exactly show how many people are trying to get that driver, but shows that the driver is being contested.
Not bad, not bad.
I should rename the topic into "make all bids semi-private" instead, the overall reaction of the community would be more positive.
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I've always thought market offers were a little backwards. In my opinion offers should be hidden by default. Then the three priced options should be for revealing offers, not hiding them.
Default: All drivers offers are hidden.
500k Offer: place a hidden offer.
1mill Offer: place a hidden offer and reveal how many other offers there are.
1.5m offer: place a hidden offer and reveal the names of managers who have placed an offer.
or maybe more expensive.
Attaching the info revealing to making an offer can prevent info sharing to a point, but not completely. Dunno how to make it less of a problem. But this sort of thing works for everyone. No time zone issues, no fairness issues. You pay more for more info.
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i like the idea of Josh ... however, if the manager is making a private offer I wish that his/her name is not visible even after 1.5m ... or may bevisible only if u pay double the amount of the private offer ....
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Josh is sitting on the horse upside down. ... Maybe he can ride anyway !?
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+1 for the idea of Josh.
Maybe before you do an offer you should be able to see if the driver has:
- low interest: 0-1 offers
- medium interest: 2-5 offers
- high interest: 5+ offers
or just 2 categories:
- low interest: 0-2 offers
- high interest: 3+ offers
This way you prevent that people who want to pay low salary need to make an offer to see if there is any interest in the driver.
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Quote ( Jochen Vandenbroele @ November 18th 2020,17:10:48 ) - low interest: 0-1 offers
- medium interest: 2-5 offers
- high interest: 5+ offers
I like it, similar to the sponsors negotiation where you cannot see who is negotiating with the same company as you, but you are able to see roughly how many people are in the negotiation stage.
Also like Josh's idea of spending more to reveal more details.
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Well I guess it depends what the aim was.
If it was to level the playing field between timezones, then making all offers private would be sensible and Jochen's idea makes good sense to address some of the perceived issues around people not having a driver but I think most people can tell which will be popular and which won't :)
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