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Jabb'r votin'
Trophy bonus - Is it fair to lower class managers?
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| Thi' Captain Spake |
Jabb'r: Trophy bonus - Is it fair to lower class managers? |
's many 's 53 answ'rs
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What do you think about trophy bonus (for driver and mostly for TD)?
I gave a lot of times better salary and bonuses but it always went to elite manager because of trophy bonus.
What do you think, is it fair that almost all elite managers can give TD trophy bonus if they know they are not going for trophy that season(s)?
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We should get rid of it entirely. It's not just unfair on those outside Elite competing in the market against Elite mangers. It's also 'unfair' on Elite managers who sign drivers while competing in the market against Elite mangers who don't plan to go for a trophy (and then sometimes have to face competing for a trophy against promoters free of the bonus).
By 'unfair' I don't mean moany-moany personally unfair, I mean it's unbalanced and artificially reduces the chances of fun multi-way Elite championship battles because we have to plan a push and start committing money to it (by hiking salaries to avoid the bonus) so far in advance instead of pivoting quickly when we're in a good position to go for it.
Before the S70 change (when paying the bonus became unavoidable) it was something interesting to manage once you'd started to push, now it's just a frustrating obstacle that disincentivises pushing in the first place. We're currently seeing the 2nd uncontested trophy in 4 seasons and although we had some fairly one-sided championships before S70 I don't remember any entirely uncontested like this. I can't speak for others but at least in my case both seasons trophy bonuses have played a significant part in my decision not to push, and that's boring for everyone.
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The driver market is terrible in amateur and Pro for this exact reason, all bonuses should go. If anything I'd rather a tiering system for automatic driver bonuses in each level. For example;
Rookie & Ama - nothing
Pro - £250k win bonus
Master £500k win bonus
Elite - £1M win bonus
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Agree with Roland entirely, I had all I needed for a title fight this season except that I couldn’t get a suitable driver due to the bonus system. So it is indeed making Elite less exciting. The current season is a complete joke.
It’s not just the trophy bonus, it’s all the bonuses which are unbalanced.
That’s just one point of view though. Another one is that this system gives managers with weaker packages a better chance at survival (in Elite or any tier) because they can sign the best drivers more easily. That’s an important element as well.
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I agree with Jasper, the problem is not just on the trophy bonus but on all bonuses. People that want a good TD but don't have a chance to get a win can just go with max bonus without a problem. I think a max bonus of 25% of the wage could be a good idea. It would already be way better then the current system.
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Let's remove it and rerun this season!
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Quote ( Andrea Squizzato @ October 29th 2021,13:10:15 ) Let's remove it and rerun this season!
It wont make a difference to your season though. You'd still fail!!!
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I think it is great to be awarded trophy for winning elite, maybe it should be....
Trophy...
Elite.... GOLD
Maste... Silver
Pro ... Bronze
elite 10m
master 5m
pro 1m
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Quote ( Finn Shaw-McIver @ October 29th 2021,11:31:25 ) The driver market is terrible in amateur and Pro for this exact reason, all bonuses should go. If anything I'd rather a tiering system for automatic driver bonuses in each level. For example;
Rookie & Ama - nothing
Pro - £250k win bonus
Master £500k win bonus
Elite - £1M win bonus
Removing the bonuses will create madness in the already crazy Rookie and Amateur driver market, and salaries and signing fees will increase to ridiculous levels (not that there aren't ridiculous now).
Instead of removing bonuses, maybe they can be capped, like the driver signing fee. For example, in Rookie and Amateur, total amount of win bonuses can't exceed driver's salary per race, 0.75 for podium and 0.5 for points. Say you offer a 1M salary for a driver, 1M/17 races is roughly a max amount of 58k bonus for win, 43k podium bonus and 29k point bonus. And raise the cap in Pro, Master and Elite.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ October 29th 2021,12:39:45 ) I had all I needed for a title fight this season except that I couldn’t get a suitable driver
You had everything for title fight except driver? Haha, so you didnt have everything then. Many people could say that had everything except sponsors, car lvl, staff etc etc :) The real reason you didnt get the driver wasnt because of a bonus system, but because you played it cheap. Cheaper than the guy who is actually heading for the title with his package being ready for title push except *** … ;)
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Quote ( Roland Postle @ October 29th 2021,10:23:58 ) We should get rid of it entirely. It's not just unfair on those outside Elite competing in the market against Elite mangers. It's also 'unfair' on Elite managers who sign drivers while competing in the market against Elite mangers who don't plan to go for a trophy
Exactly my point.
A lower ranking manager can loose TD/driver with much better offer just because of the trophy bonus, although this trophy bonus will almost never be payed.
And even bigger issue is what Roland mentioned with contracts on the elite level...every good driver/TD in the elite goes to someone who has no plans to chase trophies. This is very unfair for well prepared managers looking for a good driver/TD for a trophy attack.
In my opinion, we can completely remove trophy bonus or leave it but greatly reduce its influence on contract offer.
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ October 29th 2021,14:15:04 ) Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ October 29th 2021,12:39:45 )
I had all I needed for a title fight this season except that I couldn’t get a suitable driver
You had everything for title fight except driver? Haha, so you didnt have everything then. Many people could say that had everything except sponsors, car lvl, staff etc etc :) The real reason you didnt get the driver wasnt because of a bonus system, but because you played it cheap. Cheaper than the guy who is actually heading for the title with his package being ready for title push except *** … ;)
Haha, watch out Jasper.
Don't poke the Tiger if you're not ready to be bitten :)
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It's not just the Elite trophy bonus. I've lost my driver in the market because of other bonuses which I can't afford if I go with premium tyres. (and I do not played it cheap!) After that market my season is a nightmare again... It's part of the game, so I'm not complaining, but I think without the bonuses it would be fairer.
And I know that removing all of it, that's not the way. But now it's have a bigger role than it have to be.
What if a pipi guy can't be able to give the driver as much points bonus as a person who's with Br? In my opinion that makes sense.
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ October 29th 2021,14:15:04 ) Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ October 29th 2021,12:39:45 )
I had all I needed for a title fight this season except that I couldn’t get a suitable driver
You had everything for title fight except driver? Haha, so you didnt have everything then. Many people could say that had everything except sponsors, car lvl, staff etc etc :) The real reason you didnt get the driver wasnt because of a bonus system, but because you played it cheap. Cheaper than the guy who is actually heading for the title with his package being ready for title push except *** … ;)
Congrats, you got the meaning of the word “except”. :)
I also believe that there has been more than one driver on the market in recent times.
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Oh man, I was going to post something similar and I could have had two champs backing me up, now I just look like a sycophant!
While I do agree, I think it's worth noting that the current system does at least act as something of a playing field leveller. The managers who have the best cars and most money can't just take it as a given that they can get the best staff as well.
It would be ideal if there could be a way of judging your "likelihood" of earning those bonuses as well as the amount offered. Not quite sure the best way of doing this - at first I thought tyre cost would be a decent steer (and still do), but then you face problems with the R1 market when no-one has tyres...
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it's a good question... don't know how, but something could be tried to get the system fair and better balanced
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Or maybe make them pay half (or any arbitrary %) of the proposed bonus directly at signing. Like: "you get this amount as bonus, with X % guaranteed"
Or else it needs to be capped at X% of salary per race (3%, 5% ?) like signing fees are capped. So that in order to offer higher bonus, you have to offer a higher salary :)
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Quote ( Twig Fahaji @ October 29th 2021,15:05:31 ) It would be ideal if there could be a way of judging your "likelihood" of earning those bonuses as well as the amount offered. Not quite sure the best way of doing this - at first I thought tyre cost would be a decent steer (and still do), but then you face problems with the R1 market when no-one has tyres...
Think of the can of worms that would be opened up the first time someone thinks they lost a driver because the game didn't realise they were in a better position to compete than their opponent.
Though that would make for some entertaining forum content, so I'm in favour.
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Quote ( Andrea Squizzato @ October 29th 2021,13:10:15 ) Let's remove it and rerun this season!
Can I Pick Contis if we re run it?
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Quote ( Iain Bartholomew @ October 29th 2021,15:33:01 ) Quote ( Twig Fahaji @ October 29th 2021,15:05:31 )
It would be ideal if there could be a way of judging your "likelihood" of earning those bonuses as well as the amount offered. Not quite sure the best way of doing this - at first I thought tyre cost would be a decent steer (and still do), but then you face problems with the R1 market when no-one has tyres...
Think of the can of worms that would be opened up the first time someone thinks they lost a driver because the game didn't realise they were in a better position to compete than their opponent.
Though that would make for some entertaining forum content, so I'm in favour.
Yeah of course that will be open to debate. But if it's a known fact that your tyre cost is used as the measure of your point scoring potential, that's something that people would have to accept. And knowing the people who play GPRO, I'm sure everyone will be accepting of it and not have any complaints.
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this is a very silly idea! stop moaning and get on with giving out bonuses!
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Quote ( Stéphane Rombaux @ October 29th 2021,15:28:59 ) Or maybe make them pay half (or any arbitrary %) of the proposed bonus directly at signing. Like: "you get this amount as bonus, with X % guaranteed"
Or else it needs to be capped at X% of salary per race (3%, 5% ?) like signing fees are capped. So that in order to offer higher bonus, you have to offer a higher salary :)
I like this idea. It would at least alleviate some of these problems imo.
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Quote ( Roland Postle @ October 29th 2021,10:23:58 ) We should get rid of it entirely. It's not just unfair on those outside Elite competing in the market against Elite mangers. It's also 'unfair' on Elite managers who sign drivers while competing in the market against Elite mangers who don't plan to go for a trophy (and then sometimes have to face competing for a trophy against promoters free of the bonus).
On the second point, I would say that all the types of driver/TD bonuses are unfair in that way. With win bonuses those managers willing to run their season in such a way they are unlikely to win come out ahead. For podium bonuses it's the managers who are unlikely to score podiums that can put massive bonuses, and for points bonuses it's the managers who aren't even trying for retention.
I'm not advocating for bonuses to be removed entirely but I would like to see their effect diminished generally.
Another problem with championship bonuses is that it in effect penalizes those who don't have enough money to offer the maximum possible bonus. Given that probably 90% of elite is going to offer the maximum bonus they can, it leads to a situation where it's easier to win a TD if you have a high financial balance.
Quote ( Roland Postle @ October 29th 2021,10:23:58 ) I can't speak for others but at least in my case both seasons trophy bonuses have played a significant part in my decision not to push, and that's boring for everyone.
Not true in my case this season as I wished to avoid paying a champ bonus at the end of last season. I simply didn't have my account in a situation where I would have been comfortable committing to another title attempt.
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How about instead of having a 'Trophy bonus' It gets changed to a Championship performance bonus?
The theory being if a manger offers 20,000,000 Champoionship performance bonus they pay a % based on where they finish in the championship stamdings.
So 1st = 100%
2nd = 97.5%
And so on down to 40th = 2.5%
These are just arbitrary percentages i plucked out of my ass to make the point, they can be adjusted to suit the needs, Myabe only penalise people who relegate, not so sure how 'fair' that would be deemed,
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I'm in the opinion that bonuses shouldn't be removed, or at least the basic points/podium/win bonus at the very least. Taking that away takes away another possible strategy option that people might want to use. And if people abuses these options, they generally have a penalty for that which they have to pay for. You can't always be avoiding scoring points forever for example to not pay the points penalty, especially if that is on the driver. It does give newcomers in a league a chance to fight and be slightly more competitive than they could have been normally so it has a benefit from a "competition" perspective.
Taking away bonuses in general also would likely just make the market even worse in driving salary prices higher, right now we have a decent salary payment but without that, who knows how high salary could go? Though that is pretty fun to watch admittedly :D
Regarding trophy bonus, I feel like they could still have a role to play in the game, but the format that it is implemented has to be reconsidered to help everyone be on a much more level playing field. Especially the fact that Elite managers are able to bid on Master TD/drivers and subsequently relegate without any prior penalty for that. I guess one stop gap method (but not necessarily solving the problem) could be implementing a trophy bonus relegation penalty? So for example, if someone had a Master TD and relegates with a 30m trophy bonus, maybe he has to be forced to pay that amount at the end of the season when he relegates. It hence removes that exploit options and gives Master managers a better opportunity to compete for drivers/TD even with the absence of that particular bonus to offer.
It doesn't solve much, and the main issue is still there which I personally can't think of a solution to fix this right now, but at least it helps to remove a well known exploit in this game and gives Master managers a better chance at things at it stands in the market.
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I think the unfair advantage that soon-to-be-relegated Elite managers hold over managers in lower tiers by offering a trophy bonus could be removed fairly easily: only allow offering a trophy bonus to drivers over 180 OA and to TDs over 130 OA.
For staff with an OA below those thresholds, the trophy bonus doesn’t have any gameplay effect anyway because they won’t be targeted by managers who intend to win a trophy with them*. So I don’t think there is any downside to getting rid of the option for that market segment.
*edit: unless a manager intends to dip into Master, return to Elite and push for the title a few seasons later. But in that case you won’t be wanting to offer an enormous trophy bonus anyway, so getting rid of the option still won’t have a big negative effect on market dynamics.
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What about someone offering a low race salary winning over a higher race salary, because the manager offered a huge trophy bonus that he knows will never happen?
Doesn't that affect negotiating in lower groups also?
Seems like using such a fake offer is a bit unscrupulous, but that doesn't mean people wont do it.
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Quote ( Sam Martin @ October 29th 2021,19:15:48 ) What about someone offering a low race salary winning over a higher race salary, because the manager offered a huge trophy bonus that he knows will never happen?
Doesn't that affect negotiating in lower groups also?
Seems like using such a fake offer is a bit unscrupulous, but that doesn't mean people wont do it.
Trophy bonus can only be offered by Elite managers.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ October 29th 2021,19:08:51 ) I think the unfair advantage that soon-to-be-relegated Elite managers hold over managers in lower tiers by offering a trophy bonus could be removed fairly easily: only allow offering a trophy bonus to drivers over 180 OA and to TDs over 130 OA.
This is nice idea, although at this point it just loses its point entirely for me. In most cases you'll still be able to abuse that system.
If relegation is that big of a deal in terms of champ bonus, then maybe paying half of it during the relegation would be already quite big of a penalty (and maybe getting it back if you promote with the same driver back to Elite? considering that you'll still have to pay the full champ bonus if you'd get the title)
Quote ( Paul Williams @ October 29th 2021,18:03:07 ) How about instead of having a 'Trophy bonus' It gets changed to a Championship performance bonus?
The one combined above (relegation penalty) and then this could even out this bonus I think. Then everyone has to consider how well they'll be doing during the season and can't just put max champ bonus "just because".
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Wining bonus is fair because we all have the same rules.
It is up to you if you will earn money and give high bonus and then be careful, or will you give more salary or take bad/cheap driver and train him.
But trophy bonus is unfair in case when we have master and elite manager.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ October 29th 2021,19:08:51 ) only allow offering a trophy bonus to drivers over 180 OA and to TDs over 130 OA.
Good idea Jasper I agree with this but Andreas said a good thing: "at this point it just loses its point".
Trophy bonus in elite between prepared and not prepared manager is also issue but it is fair since they both have the same rules.
Yes it is hard to gain good driver and go for trophy but you also have a lot of hard things in lower groups...I was braking last 5 seasons and try not to promote and still gain good progress and money which was really really exhausting while in elite you dont need to brake all the time,...in every group you need to balance between multiple things and this is ok, but most important is for rules to be fair and trophy bonus in master/elite is just not.
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