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Sondagem do tópico
Back to 15 relegations in Amateur for increased competition?
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Tópico: Increase amateur relegations |
75 respostas
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I think 15 is a high number. But 10 maybe is something to think about.
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So, having amateur groups filled to 40 managers like they used to be would be a start I guess. Since that's still not relegating anyone above 31st place as current?
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Reduce the group sizes in amateur to 30 with 10 relegation to add a little more competition.
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That isn't actually a bad idea. Resigning drivers (race trashing) will be a lot more challenging though.
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What were really dealing with here is some economic theory :D
The reality is relegating more managers with gpro in its current state of user retention will be unlikely to improve the manager talent pool in amateur. Providing slots can actually be filled with active managers. So amateur will not benefit.
The pressing matter of course is will the the demanded increase in expenditure this causes in amateur be enough to solve/subdue the economic problems faced by managers in pro and those relegating from master?
That is very difficult to determine whether that would work. My opinion is it wouldn't. The level of competition in amateur on 'managing merit' isn't high enough to cause much effect. It is making a bad problem worse however. But to truly solve this you need to get to the source.
Word seems to be that costs at pro and master are comparable, but revenue isn't. Perhaps cost control needs to be considered? It already exists in ama with tyre supplier and TD restrictions. Perhaps something similar needs to be explored in pro?
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Voted: "No, its fine how it is" due to lack of choice like: "I just want to see the results", please add it next time, cuz this thread is interesting and I want to follow it, but I want to see the poll results too, without impacting the votes :]
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I think having increased relegation is wrong. I think the game needs to favour the managers who want to RACE over managers who serial smoke but who chase achievements. If these guys have to manage money and downgrade car parts etc it creates a far better playing field.
I would also change the negative balance policy. Go below -5m and get 5 place grid penalty (or a driven through penalty taken by lap 3) for every race you qualify for in negative balance. Same for if a part expires and they cannot qualify until they downgrade, replace or upgrade.
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From my perspective: introducing TD and at least 3 tyre suppliers in ama would make it more competitive.
This might reduce the gap between ama and pro, because a lot of managers are "lost in Pro" when achieve promotion for the first time.
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I don't think building a huge cash reserve is a problem as it will be lost just as quickly for most when they get to pro. If you don't spend in amateur you certainly will have to in pro or there's no way to close the gap and keep those sponsors happy. I had rather promote to pro with 50-100m but with a package that can compete from the start.
Allowing td with overall below 70 would spice things up though and improve them ready for the higher levels to consider them. Maybe allow 1 additional tyre too like Avon so that the knowledge of how a different tyre durability works compared to that of pips.
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Quote ( David Jones-Winkley @ September 2nd 2017,11:03:42 ) Allowing td with overall below 70 would spice things up though and improve them ready for the higher levels to consider them. Maybe allow 1 additional tyre too like Avon so that the knowledge of how a different tyre durability works compared to that of pips.
I liked this idea. The only thing I would change is two more tyre suppliers. GPRO could insert a new one so the price is in range of amateur expenses.
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Yes, Avonn would probably be ok enough to compete with Pipi's. It'd make Pipi nearly obsolete most likely in amateur, but they still have enough performance to compete fairly squarly with Avonn.
I agree fully with David actually then, if we could even just have an amateur TD market of <70 and Avonn tyres as an option that would make people want to open their wallets a bit at least, but not without killing them or giving those arriving in amateur so much to think about. But it would also be great if there were 10 relegations, and if it means reducing amateur groups to 30, I'd definitely support that notion. My preference though would probably be 10 relegating in amateur groups of 40, so that the current status quo of 30th retaining is maintained and keeping those at the lower end of the field satisfied enough with that being kept. But at least there would then be some relegation threat for those doing so badly.
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Avon tyre durability may need to be lowered as well so that pips can compete. Avon are now a supplier that I'd not recommend for pro especially since energy came in so any tweaking wouldn't change it's usefulness for the many.
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Yeah, its true. Avonn could easily be weakened to something like 5 or 6 dura instead of 8.
I still think Pro needs another option beside Yoko, Dunno and Conti aswell though. Like a 3 dry bar, 5/6 wet bar tyre at something like 29 or 30C peak temp.
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I don't like adding Avonn to Ama, or any other tyre supplier unless new ones are created for that purpose.
My reason mainly being that Pips are so much worse, even with Avonn going down to 5 or 6 Durability, that promoters would go Avonn and those saving money would go Pips, making the whole thing even worse really as then the promoters wouldn't have any competition instead. Now it's at least competitive, and at times a fight between some managers to gain the points wanted to go into Pro with.
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Quote ( David Jones-Winkley @ September 2nd 2017,11:28:02 ) Avon tyre durability may need to be lowered as well so that pips can compete. Avon are now a supplier that I'd not recommend for pro especially since energy came in so any tweaking wouldn't change it's usefulness for the many.
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ September 2nd 2017,11:39:05 ) Yeah, its true. Avonn could easily be weakened to something like 5 or 6 dura instead of 8.
I still think Pro needs another option beside Yoko, Dunno and Conti aswell though. Like a 3 dry bar, 5/6 wet bar tyre at something like 29 or 30C peak temp.
Good point. Only few managers choose Avonn in Pro.
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I think an alternative tyre for Ama would need to be priced similarly to Pips, and only be marginally different. Maybe like Avons but with 3 durability, 5 warm up and a $500k price**
There are a lot of managers who have an easy ride with cash in ama, but there are also a lot who really don't know what they're doing. Offering a substantially more expensive tyre that has a noticeable advantage won't help inexperienced managers, nor the game's retention of them.
** but what would be the point anyway? I don't think adding a tyre option to Ama solves much
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No. Quit messing with the workings of GPRO and leave it alone. It's fine as is and if you start changing something that doesn't have any problems in the first place, you're pretty much becoming the Brian France's of GPRO.
People who think they're doing good when you're only being an idiot and actually hurting the game itself.
This is a waste of time and shouldn't even be changed.
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In fact I think this should be the opposite. Some rookies should not be promoted, having like 5k is far to be enough to retain in ama. Money should be in the criteria to get the promotion. After all this is not a race game but a management game.
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Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ September 1st 2017,17:36:15 ) If the gap between amatuer and pro wasn't so big, people wouldnt be saving the way they do. The gains from TD's and the like in pro just makes it more plausible to spend the money in pro rather than amatuer.
The reduction in revenue coupled with the disproportionate increases in costs when promoting to pro is the problem. The cash collection in amatuer is merely the equilibrium required to allow the game to function and for promoters to actually have a chance to retain before going bankrupt.
This is precisely my point about finances. The economics system is completely weird if you require a cash cow league to balance it out, although by cash cow I don't even mean raw cash, which goes away quite soon, but sponsor hoarding.
At the moment, probably ~25% of the signed sponsors in Master belong to Amateur, which is a ridiculous high number considering at the extreme highest possibility, 37% of the managers currently in Master were in Amateur 2 seasons ago (assuming all of them promoted to Pro and right away to Master, which is a preposterous estimation). At the same time, probably at most 15% of the signed sponsors in Master belong to Master, again a ridiculous number considering at the very least there are 25 managers who have been in Master for 1 season + 11 races or longer and the remaining ones for 11 races already. I've witnessed quite a few managers who arrived in Master with 8-10 hoarded sponsors, and whereas most of them failed (or are failing), the competition is skewed due to that.
Again, example from my group. At the moment, there are only 3 managers in the group who were there 5 seasons ago (in a previous post I said 2, but I missed a guy). One of them is currently at 14M balance and no signed sponsors. Other one at 20M and, paradoxically, still using hoarded sponsors from lower leagues. The other one is me, who, apparently, is doing ok. But that ok part happens due to quite some severe handicap: my S&F are laughable, so my pitstops belong to Pro at best, my car is 32nd in the group, again, required to cut costs, and my untrainables are currently at a point where they provide advantage above the average manager (86/100). Normally my income is top 10 in the group in qualys+race and the expenditures quite lower than average (before last race, ~130th in expenditures in Master), and still I'm at quite worse financial situation now than when I arrived (and, again, I arrived in mediocre shape to begin with, due to an additional unexpected promo), not only in money but in sponsorship reserves mainly, so the question is not if I will sustain but about how longer will I be able to sustain.
Now, you could argue I'm not a good enough manager and you'd be right, but there is still the point that this isn't only about my example, but about the fact people lose money and sponsors like hell in Master (and Pro, for that matter) every single season. If money/sponsors brougth from the lower leagues were so inconsequential, then where is that money required for such finantial losses (and skewed competition) arriving from?
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Not sure relegating ama managers is really the solution.
A few things I think would help:
1. Cut the number of rookie groups by 10%, which would make it harder to promote, in theory.
2. Rather than necessarily increase the number of ama managers relegating, I think that they should do similar to what happens with promotions when one managers fails to promote due to a neg balance, another one is promoted in their place, to a degree.
In this case, relegate all managers that are negative, do whatever they do with retired accounts, and relegate 5 lowest managers in each group in addition to the negs, retirements and reset accounts.
Keep pro and above relegations the same.
Why am I suggesting relegating managers that are non-negative in ama in addition to the others? Simply stated, they probably don't have a strong enough car/driver combo to remain in ama for an extended period of time, and will eventually relegate, wasting time in ama, when they really need to go back to rookie and learn the ropes.
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Your maths doesn't work too well. If you relegate all negatives/inactives + 5 per group from Ama, that's probably at least 8*125=1000, while from Rookie you would promote 3*180=540. Ama would be empty soon.
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As far as money accumulation in Ama, why not just set a maximum balance allowed? Something in the 100 million range.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ September 4th 2017,23:41:29 ) Your maths doesn't work too well. If you relegate all negatives/inactives + 5 per group from Ama, that's probably at least 8*125=1000, while from Rookie you would promote 3*180=540. Ama would be empty soon.
Jukka, you are correct, I was just throwing an idea out there for discussion. But you could also increase the rookie promotions after cutting the groups down, not that you want to necessarily do that, I was just being creative with the thought process.
Quote ( Dean Doucet @ September 5th 2017,02:19:31 ) As far as money accumulation in Ama, why not just set a maximum balance allowed? Something in the 100 million range.
I don't see why it's an issue. Some people want to sandbag an accumulate $300 million, good for them. I think other managers are threatened by ama managers accumulating so much cash they might be able to buy their way thru pro into masters, and maybe into elite, just because they don't follow that plan, so to speak.
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#54 colocada 19 Out 2017, 15:01:40
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ELI5 - I've been out of the game up until a month ago for about 3 years.
Why is there now a lot lot less relegation spots in Amateur and the logic behind it?
Just interested in why it was changed.
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#55 colocada 19 Out 2017, 15:06:35
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Quote ( Robert Enright @ October 19th 2017,15:01:40 ) Why is there now a lot lot less relegation spots in Amateur and the logic behind it?
Just interested in why it was changed.
Mainly it's a lot less rookie groups (200) and promotion restrictions in rookie (TOP8 only)
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ October 19th 2017,15:06:35 ) Mainly it's a lot less rookie groups (200) and promotion restrictions in rookie (TOP8 only)
But surely it makes Amateur too safe and also makes it very difficult(I mean unless you've a great driver, where as before you could get out with good mgmt of finances and massive risks) to get out of Amateur and into Pro now?
For eg. In this group here, no one actively racing will get relegated if they don't go into the negative. /gb/Standings.asp?Group=Amateur%20-%2071
How is that even exciting?
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#57 colocada 19 Out 2017, 15:15:29
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Quote ( Robert Enright @ October 19th 2017,15:08:23 ) For eg. In this group here, no one actively racing will get relegated if they don't go into the negative. /gb/Standings.asp?Group=Amateur%20-%2071
Jensen , where are you :O
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#58 colocada 19 Out 2017, 15:27:29
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Quote ( Martynas Bražėnas @ October 19th 2017,15:15:29 ) Jensen , where are you :O
we all A71 mates very concerned about his absent without saying anything to A71 forum neither his team mates. :(
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#59 colocada 19 Out 2017, 15:30:05
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Quote ( Robert Enright @ October 19th 2017,15:08:23 ) ut surely it makes Amateur too safe and also makes it very difficult(I mean unless you've a great driver, where as before you could get out with good mgmt of finances and massive risks) to get out of Amateur and into Pro now?
Very safe? Yes!
Difficult? Absolutely not! Especially with the driver energy introduced few seasons ago.
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#60 colocada 19 Out 2017, 15:34:01
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ October 19th 2017,15:30:05 ) Very safe? Yes!
Difficult? Absolutely not! Especially with the driver energy introduced few seasons ago.
Surely energy would have the affect I mentioned above? Stop drivers using high risks all the time. Meaning a great driver is needed...
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