| Автор |
Тема: [F1] Baku Grand Prix |
396 ответов
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,16:45:09 ) Not the issue here? lol... :DEdit: but I'm glad that most people accept that he moved under braking. Verstappen himself has just denied he did any such thing.
Yep, typical Verstappen. It is never his fault and Always the fault of others. His career starts to have a lot of similarity's with the career of his father Jos.
Which is no good thing.
The kid has a lot of talent. But he is very stupid or very hard headed.
|
|
|
|
|
Kvyat has been moved to TR after two incidents. All we know because of who. But this Who made it 3rd in a row (even 4th,remember his crash in Melbourne) and everything is fine. And again all we know the reason why it's fine.
|
|
|
|
Red Bull obviously know Verstappen has a problem, his race engineer reminding him throughout the race to keep it clean and he still manages to be involved in something.
You have to wonder how long they will let it go on once or should I say if Ricciardo signs a new deal
|
|
|
|
|
Perez, Stroll, Magnussen under investigation for unwarranted DRS use.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ April 29th 2018,17:14:47 ) You have to wonder how long they will let it go on once or should I say if Ricciardo signs a new deal they will not do anything with VER whatever he did. Never.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,16:45:09 ) but I'm glad that most people accept that he moved under braking.
But he did not.
If you look the onboard... when he starts shifting back his steering is straight.
I am not saying he did nothing wrong, but keep to the facts
If he was smarter (impossible with DNA from Jos) he would have let RIC pass and follow him, he could have overtaken him with DRS anytime on the straight the laps after
The move from VER wasn't illegal, but too tight to pull on a teammate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From the stewards' report:
"It was obvious to the stewards that although the incident had its origins in the moves by car 33, the driver of car 3 also contributed to the incident."
I think that's a fair view. Verstappen reprimanded, I'm not sure if they reprimanded Ricciardo as well (FIA.com published the decision on Max twice, instead of publishing both).
|
|
|
|
|
They where both reprimanded in the reports I have read
|
|
|
|
Post race interviews, as you'd expect, everyone keeping it clean. It must have been hard for Dan to keep his opinion to himself. Horner was also very diplomatic, saying that both drivers were reminded they have to give each other room if they want to be allowed to race. But I think that had to be a comment in reference to Verstappen because Daniel has been giving Max all the room he needed, and more, through the whole race. There were a number of situations where Dan could've done what Max was doing and not give an inch, but he pulled out, made the space for Max knowing that if he doesn't, it may end up in tears. He was not nearly as aggressive with Max as he is with others.
I really hope that these comments are just the normal PR protocol because there is zero Dan's fault in all of this. Verstappen, again, behaved like a spoilt selfish, immature little kid. It's ok to race wheel to wheel, but what he did in turn 1 on lap 12 (if I remember correctly), was almost a copy of the incident in Hungaroring last season. Dan was well ahead going into the corner on the outside, but what did Max do? He couldn't help himself, just had to take a dive under brakes, lock up and go wide into Dan. Not only that, he also squeezed Dan up against the wall, and they were lucky just to rub the tyres this time. Dan knows Max will pull crazy moves, because he had every right to go for the apex and he didn't; any driver racing against a "normal" driver would close the door. But instead of taking the racing line Dan left Max plenty of room and that's the only reason they didn't have an incident there already.
As for the crash, I could be wrong, but it looked like Max's second move was already under braking. It was a fine line, but from Dan's onboard camera it seems like they just started braking when Max moved back to the inside. But let's forget about that, let's say he moved back just before braking (I really don't believe that, but let's assume that's the case). This is just another display of Verstappen's immaturity and selfish behavior. He gets paid millions of dollars for a reason. He is a professional racing driver. He knows what will happen when he does this kind of a move at the end of a long straight, where the car behind is coming up at much greater speed. Even we, as F1 fans only, know that the car behind needs downforce to brake. If he makes a late move like he did, there is no way the car behind can slow down quickly enough. There was just one possible outcome. He really shouldn't have made that move back to the inside.
But the fact that Dan couldn't slow down enough anymore is the reason I think they were already into the braking zone when Max moved back. All of the sudden the gap disappeared, but if they weren't on the brakes yet, Dan would've been able to move back to the outside and avoid Max. Max was not only going slower, but also braking and had the grip to brake, whereas Dan was all of the sudden without downforce and time to react. This is Verstappen's selfish nature. I appreciate that these guys are racing for every position, and so they should, but there are certain limits and there is a code of conduct, especially when it comes to your teammate.
I really feel bad for Dan. He's done nothing wrong, no fault of his in this incident, yet according to Horner, both drivers will apologise to the team at the factory. That must feel like a punch in the stomach for Dan. None of his fault, yet he's being put in the same basket as Verstappen in front of the whole world and he has to take it on the chin. That's a real team player. And Verstappen should just come out and say sorry, be a man and own up to his mistake. This whole thing is really frustrating and I hope it doesn't have a negative impact on Dan's motivation. But he was smiling walking out of the park, said it will be all good, so let's hope it will be,
Quote ( Alexei Malkin @ April 29th 2018,17:26:02 ) they will not do anything with VER whatever he did. Never.
No, they won't, and you can see that from the way they've handled the situation. Max is their new "golden child".
Quote ( Niels Wolters @ April 29th 2018,16:40:34 ) Keep blaming VER all, so easy.
Ric passed twice on outside there but now wants to go on inside with a dummy
Did VER move before braking, yes, but that is allowed and not the issue here
I didn't expect you to say anything different, Niels. Everyone could see it was Verstappen's stupid move, again, that caused the accident, but you still deny it. If Verstappen thought Dan would again try to overtake on the outside, why did he move back to the inside to block? And for your information, the overtaking can be done both on the outside and on the inside. I just don't understand what you're trying to say. This is ridiculous. It makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that since Dan passed Max on the outside twice he should stick to that? Can't he try a different maneuver to overtake Max? Is Max that dangerous? This is just absurd and has no merit. It's frustrating that you, Niels, an extremely intelligent guy, can talk nonsense like that.
Hamilton is counting his lucky stars. I just feel for Bottas, I think he would've won if not for the Dan/Max incident. He would've gone onto ultra softs and blitzed Vettel. And even when the safty car worked out for him, and he got to the front that way, he picks up a puncture. Really bad fortune.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Niels Wolters @ April 29th 2018,18:13:10 )
The move from VER wasn't illegal
Why? RIC moved right anf waited for the same maneuver from VER. VER did it, yo7 can see it from RIC onboard. After that RIC immediately moved to the left because he knew that it's not allowed to do 2nd move when you defence. But VER did it again, so it's against the rules.
|
|
|
|
|
#312 Размещено 29 Апр 2018, 19:48:19 (последняя редакция 29 Апр 2018, 19:51:45 от Josh Clark)
|
Цитата
|
All I can say about Verstappen is again, no respect. Daniel gave Max amazing respect in the 3 moves of his that Verstappen defended. The touch of wheels was unsportsmanlike and closing an opening he himself created was unsportmanlike. It's not a case of "how do I get past this guy, he's too good at defending!", it's a case of "how do I get past this guy without him taking me out of the race?"
Other drivers are like "I'm gonna do my best to not let you past."
Vertappen's like "You're not coming past."
Really unfortunate race for a lot of drivers though. Hulk could easily have been fighting for that podium at the end had he not locked the rears early on. Gorjean put himself in a tremendous position at that safety car restart and had what looked a lot like some form of rear suspension failure. Bottas and Vettel, Ricciardo and Vertappen's incidents speak for themselves. Sainz was also a bit unfortunate to catch his tyres fall off the cliff so rapidly and also take the wrong tyre during his stop.
I think the only driver who had an actually fantastic race, with no mistakes and no poor choices, was Leclerc. Amazing job by him, was on for a 5th place and got very close, kept himself to himself and did exactly what was needed. So impressedm considering he almost lapped his team mate at one point who also apparently had no severe incidents.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Alexei Malkin @ April 29th 2018,19:46:41 ) Why? RIC moved right anf waited for the same maneuver from VER. VER did it, yo7 can see it from RIC onboard. After that RIC immediately moved to the left because he knew that it's not allowed to do 2nd move when you defence. But VER did it again, so it's against the rules.
This is NOT against the rules.
Edit: I'm actually starting to doubt this, gonna check the sporting regs. Possibly it says that you're only allowed 2 moves (1 to go off the racing line and 1 to resume it).
|
|
|
|
Racing line was from the right. VER moved:
1) left
2) right when RIC did right maneuver (back to the line)
3) left again
It's against the rules imo
|
|
|
|
It used to be against the rules. There WAS this article in the sporting regulations, I believe up to and including 2016:
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
So basically that's saying: you can move once, then you can move back to the racing line as long as you leave a car's width of space.
However, this rule was taken out of the regulations altogether in 2017. The "one move only" rule was introduced after Hamilton weaved across the straight to keep Petrov behind in Malaysia 2010, but it has only lived for a few years before the FIA decided it did more harm than good.
There is barely any rules related to overtaking/defending now. There's only this:
27.4 At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.
And this:
38.2 a) It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident should be penalised.
Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an Incident no penalty will be imposed.
|
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,20:25:29 ) However, this rule was taken out of the regulations altogether in 2017 no
Quote (Article 38.2a of the 2018 FIA Sporting Regulations) More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. If a driver has moved off the racing line while defending their position, they may move back but must ensure there is at least one car’s width between their own car and the edge of the track.
https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-reg...
|
|
|
|
|
That article is obviously not up-to-date, check the actual Sporting Regulations on the FIA website like I just did and you will see such a rule does not exist. ;)
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,20:40:17 ) That article is obviously not up-to-date, check the actual Sporting Regulations on the FIA website like I just did and you will see such a rule does not exist. ;) what the hell. Interesting to know how much wrong rules did f1.com published...
|
|
|
|
Not sure where this has gone:
“Article 27.5 of the sporting regulations states that ‘…no car may be driven…in a manner which could be potentially dangerous to other drivers…’,”
“Furthermore, Article 27.8 prohibits any manoeuvre ‘…liable to hinder other drivers, such as…any abnormal change of direction’.
“With this in mind, and with the exception of any move permitted by Article 27.6, any change of direction under braking which results in another driver having to take evasive action will be considered abnormal and hence potentially dangerous to other drivers.
“Any such move will be reported to the stewards.”
It's not in the current rules. Maybe that's what they got rid of?
Regardless of whether Verstappen's move was legal or illegal (he's back o his old blocking tricks), it was just stupid and unnecessary, and not in the best interest of the team. And so was his defence on lap 12 when he pushed Dan up against the wall. He just does what he wants and not what's the best for the team.
But even sticking to the article 27.4, "At no time may a car be driven (...) in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person.", how was the move by Max to go back to the inside and block when the car behind was closing in at much greater speed, committed to the overtaking maneuver, not a dangerous move? I don't get that. Moving once when the car is still relatively far away is ok, moving 2nd time when the car is just about to go down the inside of you is another. The problem is that when attempting to overtake the car is already on the limit, and now it has to stop even quicker, yet all the downforce is gone. How will that happen? Zero brains used. Dan had every right to go for it, the gap was there, and then it wasn't when he hit the brakes. No chance to pull up. That's not the way Max should be racing his teammate.
|
|
|
|
The thing is any event whereby two cars race with 20 centimetres of space in between them at speeds over 300 kph is "potentially dangerous". This is where the stewards' discretion comes in.
They used their discretion and reprimanded him which seems a fair decision, now move on and look forward to Barcelona...
|
|
|
|
|
I believe that Horner and Marco actions brings Raikkonen career end. I don't think that I should explain why.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,21:13:08 )
The thing is any event whereby two cars race with 20 centimetres of space in between them at speeds over 300 kph is "potentially dangerous". This is where the stewards' discretion comes in.
They used their discretion and reprimanded him which seems a fair decision, now move on and look forward to Barcelona...
Semantics. There are normal risks that everybody accepts as part of racing (normal wheel to wheel racing) and then there's stubborn boneheadedness that endangers lives (reactive moves in braking zone). At those speeds weaving under braking can very easily go Webber Valencia 2010/Alonso Melbourne 2016, or worse - several drivers died in similar type of collisions in the nineties junior formulae. Just lucky that this time it was fairly minor an incident.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ricciardo will be at Ferrari next season, no doubt. Kimi can't stay on any longer and I don't think Vettel has so much power at his hands to dictate who gets the second seat considering its now a decade since they won a constructors - I'd be surprised if Ferrari afforded him as much. If you ask Vettel who he'd take out of all the other drivers out there, that are capable of filling the seat, I would not doubt for a moment that he would say Bottas first and then Ricciardo. I'll be surprised if either of those two remain where they are.
Bottas looks like the type who has got stage fright just from being Lewis Hamilton's team mate...can't see him taking the pressure of being in 'red', as much as it would very much suit Vettel if he was. Surely Ferrari will throw all their eggs into Ricciardo, he's got some italian ancestry going on too. Bottas will probably end up at Renault, that's probably a comfortable level for him (not saying he's a bad driver btw, just that I believe he performs better in a less pressurised environment).
|
|
|
|
|
So like I said, "golden child". Nothing was done about his erratic driving back in 2016, so Max still thinks he can get away with just about anything. And he obviously can. The incident in Bahrain cost him, not Hamilton. Justice was done. It wasn't a big mistake or a dangerous behavior, so it's ok. But then he messed up big in China wrecking Vettel's race and he just got a slap on the wrist for that, cost him 1 position. Now he was extremely aggressive (and against his own teammate), yet nothing has been done. Reprimand? For moving like he did at 300+km/h? It's a joke. And why was Dan reprimanded? I really don't see where his fault is in all of that. He's been giving space to Max all race, very patient with his moves. Yet when he gets blocked at the last moment, when he can't do anything to avoid the contact anymore, for some reason it's partially his fault? I just don't get that.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Janne Väänänen @ April 29th 2018,21:21:53 ) Semantics.
Yes, so that's why there is stewards' discretion. What part do you disagree with?
|
|
|
|
I'm still dreaming to see Hulk in Ferrari, but you know, it never will be happened.
Btw, why Ocon hasn't been punished today?
Btw2, there was a moment in the race when Ricciardo was ahead of Verstappen. It was left turn when VER braked so late, kicked RIC to the front left wheel and passed him. RIC was almost 4 wheels outside of the track and VER forced him off. No punishment anyway.
|
|
|
|
I still consider it unconfirmed that Ricciardo has been reprimanded, btw. I think news websites are copying each other but the FIA has still not published the decision regarding Ricciardo, only that regarding Verstappen.
The links for documents 45 and 46 both link to document 46 with Verstappen's name on it: https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championshi...
Ricciardo could be reprimanded, or he could not be. The decision on Verstappen points at both drivers, but mainly Verstappen...
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,21:27:08 ) Yes, so that's why there is stewards' discretion. What part do you disagree with?
I disagree with the racing rules themselves. They're excessively vague and leave far too much in the hands of the stewards.
I also disagree with your idea that it was a fair decision. Might have been if Max didn't have a history of such incidents, but he does.
With Red Bull downplaying his reckless defending and the stewards doing basically nothing about it either, I really doubt Max's on-track behaviour is gonna change after this and that's why I disagree with the "move on" sentiment as well, fearing that a worse collision is bound to happen in the future.
Quote ( Alexei Malkin @ April 29th 2018,21:28:39 ) Btw, why Ocon hasn't been punished today?
I think this one was a racing incident though. Ocon probs genuinely didn't see Kimi was there, and it was lap one, so...
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ April 29th 2018,21:35:13 ) I still consider it unconfirmed that Ricciardo has been reprimanded, btw. I think news websites are copying each other but the FIA has still not published the decision regarding Ricciardo, only that regarding Verstappen.
The links for documents 45 and 46 both link to document 46 with Verstappen's name on it: https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championshi...
Ricciardo could be reprimanded, or he could not be. The decision on Verstappen points at both drivers, but mainly Verstappen...
29.04 Stewards Decision Doc46 - D.Ricciardo
Both drivers expressed regret about their respective contributions to the incident,
during the Stewards’ hearing.
|
|
|
|
|
"Ricciardo expressed regret" is not the same thing as "Ricciardo has been given a reprimand"...
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Română
Italiano
Português
Português
Français
Polski
Български
Македонски
Српски
Nederlands
Vlaams
Suomi
Lietuvių
Čeština
Magyar
Eesti keel
Slovenčina
Türkçe
Shqip
Ελληνικά
Hrvatski
Bahasa Melayu
Dansk
Pirate
