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Konu: The Case Against FOBY+Game Calculators for Rookies |
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#1 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 00:42:11
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FOBY (Find Out By Yourself) is an acronym used by this community to represent the idea that gameplay questions should be answered using a methodology of analyzing one’s own available data in search of trends and causation in performance.
Example:
Q: what makes my driver faster?
A: FOBY, try out a few drivers and compare their stats. See how each performs.
Except we all know this not to be the case. Managers can and do frequent PMs, the mentor and noob forums, and teams in search of answers. What they receive is as much dependent on luck (who they are talking to and what that person implicitly believes to be true in the game) as it is on the aptitude of the new manager.
There are many hard and fast rules to success in rookie but in each upper division those rules become more grey and the path to success differs as much as the definition of what success in this game even is.
Generally speaking I believe the underlying idea behind FOBY is at the heart of what makes this game exciting but it can also be the game’s worst enemy in scaring away new players.
There are too many game variables to name in one post and new players (if they do not want to take the team route) must learn those variables from ZERO against a community who have in many cases been gathering data for years. In addition, there is some data that can only truly be understood after multiple seasons of gameplay and that’s only IF the manager was proactive enough to gather and save all of their data from day one. Hint: it takes a lot more than just the race analysis ;)
As much as this becomes a philosophical discussion I want to first get about to making a suggestion that has been made before in various capacities.
GPRO should make available some very basic tools to new managers and allow older managers to pay after a set amount of time (I think 51 races aka 3 seasons). After all there are already managers paying for info from other sources.. why not channel some of that back into GPRO
Here’s a breakdown:
FREE UPON FIRST 51 RACES (then paid thereafter)
-general setup (not specific and could still be enhance with practice laps and driver input)
-general tire wear 0CT only
-general fuel (no ability to factor in boost laps)
ADDITIONAL PAID FEATURES
-more precise setup
-option to calc tire wear based on CT for Pipis only (aka won’t be very useful for Pro and up)
-option to calc net fastest strategy of the tire compounds/stops needed
Nobody will win Elite with these tools but it will give new managers a baseline that is standard across the board and will allow them to get about answering the even more complicated subjects including driver attributes and training, staff and facilities, sponsor negotiations, car wear and car levels, PHA, technical directors, testing, tyre suppliers, driver energy etc. etc. etc.
The real question becomes what draws people to this game?
I generally think that people are drawn into this game not because they realize the colossal amount of long term planning and data analysis they will face (which does eventually become fun and necessary) but because they enjoy racing. In the rookie divisions, winning a race is actually pretty damn easy if you aren’t FOBY! Contrary to popular opinion, I think that is OKAY and maybe even GOOD.
The skills of FOBY can be developed over time and will be needed if one truly wishes to progress in this game. But if one is content sticking it out in Rookie and Amateur, grazing the forums for a fun conversation, then there should be a relatively accessible place in this game for them as well!
To truly legitimately FOBY from zero would take months. I do not think this expectation is realistic in the gaming world and I already see the underlying topics of conversations relaxing to meet this reality. However, the general policy of GPRO has not outwardly been changed and there is a feeling of uncertainty about what constitutes FOBY anymore.
In rookie all it really takes to win is a good driver (assuming your strategy and tire decision is at least semi-coherent, hence the use of a standardized calc). So early on many newbies ask driver related questions. “What will make my driver fast?” “Which training does what?”
Some managers will give answers outright (through rarely publicly) and others try to be more inquisitive. Asking vague rhetorical questions to get a manager to think on their own.
Well let’s break it down. To FOBY the question of “what training does what?” you would need the same driver for 7 races and to train him/her once each of those races. Relatively easy but in a world where video games can be mastered in just hours you’re looking at 3-4 weeks turnaround to answer a very basic question.
Okay now the question, “what makes my driver fast?” Well in rookie there’s one trainable attribute that trumps ALL the others EASILY but what if you didn’t know that? Well now you have to train the stats and take notes on incremental performance. To do this from scratch could take months! And by then you’ve only really begun to understand a fraction of the tip of the iceberg that makes this game what it is!
I understand that almost nobody does this now, but my point is that there was once a time when this was somewhat the expectation. But then people played longer, understood more, and attitudes changed.
I believe we are closing in on an era where those attitudes can and should change again.
The most effective tool for bringing new people in is to recommend to friends and I’d say the discord chat is starting to become quite effective as well. But if we want to retain active parts of the community for longer than I am personally of the belief that we owe it to new members to provide more information than in the past so that they can get to grips with the game quicker. I also think welcoming forums are a great retention tool and sometimes that snarky attitude of FOBY does not help!
Sure, many will burn out but many already do. This game isn’t for everyone. And yes, the level of performance would inherently level out in rookie to a degree but so what? That will make the racing more fun for newbs imo
Anyways I think I have written a bit too much now so I will leave the discussion for others :)
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#2 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 00:53:28 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 00:56:04 kim tarafından: Kyle Morris)
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 23rd 2020,00:42:11 ) Here’s a breakdown:
FREE UPON FIRST 51 RACES (then paid thereafter)
-general setup (not specific and could still be enhance with practice laps and driver input)
-general tire wear 0CT only
-general fuel (no ability to factor in boost laps)
ADDITIONAL PAID FEATURES
-more precise setup
-option to calc tire wear based on CT for Pipis only (aka won’t be very useful for Pro and up)
-option to calc net fastest strategy of the tire compounds/stops needed
This part here has made it a big no from me
This will effectively make it a pay to win game by doing it.
You effectively give away loads of stuff for free to new players, meaning the old players who have had to work hard to gain all the knowledge are at a huge disadvantage already, and then on top of it, you are telling them "Oh, if you pay money, you get even more of an advantage, regardless if its pointless in pro and above its still a humongous help to see what the tyres will do"
If you read the forums properly, it has become a lot less of a FOBY game. There is loads of places where managers have been given help. The chat feature here is always helpful with giving tips, and the discord server while i'm not active in it probably helps just as much. And in the forums, there is loads of tips for people to use. People aren't just going to give away setups or best tyres, they will just say "Look at the temps, look at the track characteristics and see what you think would best suit" people shouldn't have to be given the information right in front of them. The enjoyment of the game is figuring out how to do things
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#3 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:08:33
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 23rd 2020,00:42:11 ) FREE UPON FIRST 51 RACES (then paid thereafter)
-general setup (not specific and could still be enhance with practice laps and driver input)
-general tire wear 0CT only
-general fuel (no ability to factor in boost laps)
If these were available free to all would you be more inclined to support such an idea? While I can see the pay for play argument I also believe many (if not most) managers to be getting this info for free or paid from a number of sources already and see that information as short term. There are many other key long term elements to succeeding that would be left unknown
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#4 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:16:28
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No not really. Because you are giving free information away to people that people have spent 79 seasons trying to get.
I know we haven't had a new track in a while, but the whole challenge of it is to figure out tyre wear and fuel. People with less than 51 races or "pay" for this feature will just instantly know the information and disadvantage those who have done 1000 odd races?
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#5 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:32:41 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 01:34:51 kim tarafından: Ethan Littlejohns)
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This is not a direct answer to your main point, which I do agree with Kyle about, but more specifically about FOBY.
I feel like the main benefit of 'FOBY' is for the player to feel like they've achieved something once they've figured out part of the game out and got rewarded for it. Not for experienced managers to keep the information a secret. (something many people seem to think)
Obviously if a new player asks a question, the reply should not be "FOBY", but hinting them towards a way to figure out an answer to the question themselves that they previously hadn't thought of.
For example with drivers, new players often ask what they should look for. I often suggest they look at previous drivers of managers who did extremely well the previous season, that way they may notice a pattern of which stats seem more important than others. This method can then also be used in higher groups. If you simply say "Get X to 200, Y to 100 and you can have 0 Z", that player may promote from rookie, but they will more than likely be stuck in amateur/pro with no knowledge other than what they have been spoon fed.
In summary, I'm not against FOBY, I think it's a good thing when used well... however the answer to a new player's question should never just be "FOBY".
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#6 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:33:00
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I pretty strongly disagree that the whole challenge is understanding tyre wear and fuel which is why I don't see having general (i.e. never fully accurate) access to that information as an advantage for new players or even old
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#7 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:36:21 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 01:40:28 kim tarafından: Luke Frost)
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I'd much prefer tutorials on how to effectively save data & use it productively than just spoon feeding people tools. That way they won't fall into the zombie setup tool raceday manager category that people like yourself become, where you completely disregard the data needed to create tools you had no part in creating but think should be handed out to everybody. Then you yourself lose motivation before people who use their own data and put in some solid effort to produce results.
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#8 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:42:31
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We have, IMO, at least 3 different discussions here:
* How to help 51 races old newbies to make their learning curve less steep
* Do we want FOBY policy revoked?
* Do we want pay to win features?
I don't think giving exact data to 51 races old newbies would help them learn much, they can always wait post race update to get the same information and learn from it, though it is true they need to deal with frustration doing things that way. Which they would still need to deal with after 51 races anyway if the game is kept FOBY and free of pay to win features.
I don't like the idea of PTW features, it simply transforms the game into a different one. Same goes for FOBY policy, revoking it would change the game into another game. And to be honest, I believe this game owes its longevity, in big part, to the Admins decision to both keep the game FOBY and free of Pay to Win features.
As per older managers facing a disadvantage for 51 races worth of given data, I do not see that argument as valid. Veterans who have acquired good managerial skills can outperform any newbie with data spoonfed to them. 51 races old managers do need help to become good managers, hence the existence of mentor forum; but how that can happen with what Erik proposes is something I do not see.
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#9 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 01:48:59 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 01:51:26 kim tarafından: Erik Harken)
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Quote ( Luke Frost @ November 23rd 2020,01:36:21 ) I'd much prefer tutorials on how to effectively save data & use it productively than just spoon feeding people tools. That way they won't fall into the zombie setup tool raceday manager category that people like yourself become, where you completely disregard the data needed to create tools you had no part in creating but think should be handed out to everybody. Then you yourself lose motivation before people who use their own data and put in some solid effort to produce results.
I agree on the tutorials. The rest seems oddly personal. I will admit that a manager such as myself has been more reliant on tools than data analysis in the past but within tools one can see the formulas and put together the pieces.
Not everyone will come into this game with math or coding backgrounds and my entire point is, general structural foundations that are readily available with no paywall, be it turorials or heavily watered down tools WOULD allow new players to succeed earlier but WOULD NOT allow them to retain longevity without either a) critically understanding the other 95% of the game or b) staying in lower ranks for their own enjoyment.
EDIT: To address one thing Flo mentions without double posting, I do not think FOBY should be revoked at all, but I do think it's possible to move the goal post :)
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#10 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 02:06:47
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I can understand what Erik is saying in all honesty, and to an extent it makes sense. But I think there’s better ways of tackling the issue.
anything that would help a new manager should be available to anyone with no cost. I’d like to see a lot more guidance in the form of tutorials. Most games have a fairly bullet proof tutorial to the first steps which I think GPRO could do with, the current tutorials are a good guide but still leave things daunting. Maybe a step by step walk through of doing the practice and qualies and the race set-up for the first race would be beneficial. Gives guidance on refining set ups from practice laps, a suggested strategy and hints on the risks. Doesn’t even have to be specific, could provide options for this things but with a brief explanation of why the options will have effects.
it’s a difficult subject, managers who’ve worked hard for their data and tools tend to hate giving noobs help, while noobs tend to want the answers on a plate. Meeting in the middle doesn’t necessarily please both sides. The mentor programme is good, but the new players have to wait around for replies to messages and have to actually locate the thread to start with. But it’s a topic that opens up a good debate.
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#11 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 02:31:47 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 02:37:00 kim tarafından: Josh Clark)
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I do believe there should be ways to speed up data collection and analysis about the vital things, but I don't believe it should be a significant increase. Only very slight. Certainly accurate information like this should not be given out without having to do a little bit of brain activity. Baby steps.
What about the chance to reserve a 9th practice lap specifically for a tyre degredation and fuel consumption test. Just one lap at the practice/Q1 temp, no more. Instead of a setup, the manager simply enters a number of laps to attempt and a fuel amount like in testing, and the driver's feedback gives similar stages of information like it does with setup, specifically for 0 risk running and for 1 tyre compound. Maybe even locked to just Xsofts. For example:
"Tyres: I felt like the tyres could run for much longer!" - 50km+ more
"Tyres: I had a lot of rubber remaining" - 30-50km more
"Tyres: The tyres were starting to lose performance" - 15-30km more
"Tyres: I had barely anything left at the end" - 0-15km more
"Tyres: I almost made it, but the tyres ran out" - 0-15km less
"Tyres: I couldn't quite get that far" - 15-30km less
"Tyres: I would definitely need a harder compound for that" - 30-50km less
"Tyres: These tyres got nowhere near the target!" - 50km+ less
and for inputting a fuel amount:
"Fuel: I had way too much fuel left over" - 50L+ more
"Fuel: I had a lot of fuel left over" - 30-50L more
"Fuel: There was a bit of fuel left in the tank" - 15-30L more
"Fuel: I had barely any fuel left at the end" - 0-15L more
"Fuel: I would run out on the last few laps" - 0-15L less
"Fuel: There needs to be a bit more in the tank for that" - 15-30L less
"Fuel: I will need a lot more fuel for the target" - 30-50L less
"Fuel: I won't even get close to the target!" - 50L+ less
something like that
So for an example:
Target laps: 29
Fuel amount: 125L
Tyre and Fuel practice comments from your driver:
"Tyres: I couldn't quite get that far"
"Fuel: I had a lot of fuel left over"
In my opinion this doesn't give much information, and since you would be limited to one lap you probably couldn't ever get a concrete value from it. But what it would let new players do is attempt to figure out roughly if they can make a certain strategy work with a certain compound, and give them a rough idea of the fuel consumption. If it was a 60 lap race and you wanted to see if a 3 stop Xsoft would work, you could run the 15 laps and an amount of fuel and see what your drivers says about it. I think that would at least give newer players with no data a head start, and wouldn't be better than figuring it out more accurately by yourself or with a team.
Perhaps a few things here could be changed, like a stat (probably TI) narrowing down the accuracy a bit but not too much, or using percentages so that you could test any tyre compound (since the hard distance limits would favour testing harder tyres every time probably), but I honestly don't think any more than this is necessary for new players with regards to tyres and fuel.
On the topic of driver skills and driver trainings, I believe the interactive tutorial gives great info about driver skills. As for driver trainings, I do think it would be favourable to just tell players what is gained in the training. Not necessarily how much, or if there are any negatives, but at the very least the main focus.
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#12 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 02:35:33
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 23rd 2020,02:31:47 ) What about the chance to reserve a 9th practice lap specifically for a tyre degredation and fuel consumption test.
Love this idea! Especially as a practice lap would pertain specifically to the upcoming race so the translation is much more direct. Whereas testing and past race analysis is helpful but still takes a bit more time to understand how to apply those learnings to future circuits/weather
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#13 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 03:11:28
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One thing that I think would be incredibly helpful and shouldn't be overly difficult to implement would be to allow practice laps for Q2 for those in rookie.
Adding the ability to do a single "race simulation" in Q1 or even at Q2 with fuel and tire degradation (maybe up to 25 laps with no car wear added) would be a great addition as well.
Though IMO that should be limited to Rookie or possibly rookie+ama..... though i'd say that if race simulations would be allowed in ama they should likely also be allowed in pro.
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#14 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 06:19:33 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 06:21:28 kim tarafından: Amitesh Patnaik)
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I like the thought behind the idea but not the solution proposed.
The game needs an update, and we need experienced players to make the decision based on the feedback of the newer players. The guides are far too vague and the experienced players have a big advantage, and nothing can trump that hard earned experience.
When I see GPROs situation, it seems like a parent refusing to give a teen a mobile just because they didn't have one as a kid. It's not a wrong thing to do, but it can give both parties a lot of trouble, especially for the teen with the peer group. The teen will learn appreciate other things in life that (s)he would have missed out otherwise.
Still is it worth the trouble?
I do not think it is, maybe giving them a basic phone would have been a good middle ground.
I do not think handing out tools is the answer. A little struggle in the initial stages keeps us sharp and helps us understand the value of it. I complain about the tools quite often (in private) but it's more to do with my own inability to develop them, than someone else having them.
In a recent conversation with some friends, I realised how lazy the success of the tools had made me. The struggle in the initial stages is a necessity.
Should the struggle be made far less painful?
It has to be. The game is become one of the best teachers in general but it's also a very harsh one. People should enjoy as well.
More detailed guides are needed, maybe from the best players on how they approached the game at their early stages, the struggles that they had and some hints too.
Josh's idea seems like one of the best answers to the problem. (Maybe implementing it in Q2 as Daniel says would be better.)
[TL;DR]
Please update the game and give us some guides/tutorials from successful players. Handing out tools isn't the answer.
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#15 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 06:53:40
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There are several tutorials available to newbies. It seems that quite a few people read it carefully :)
These are some points covered there:
- do not hire a driver with salary higher than $1mil
- higher OA doesn't mean the driver is better that with less OA
- do not spend money, be patient
- your driver alone will promote you from rookie to amateur
- again do not spend money
- look at driver's statistics like avg points per race etc to understand whether he is good
- you will need maximum of ~280L fuel for 300km race for some exception (Indy Oval is 800km)
- from race analysis page you can calculate approximate fuel/tyre wear per stint and for the whole race (and it gives example on how to do it)
- first things you'd like to figure out are fuel consumption and tyre wear
...and some other valuable information
Following these guides will eventually bring you to understanding that you have to be quite a decent mathematician to at least predict fuel/tyre/setup for upcoming races, and this game is not actually about management at start.
Now you can decide whether you stay with this hardcore game or put it on pause. If you stay and you are not Albert Einstein, find ways how to compensate it. The official way is to join a team.
Ironically there is also pirate way that is not official.
For entertaining purposes (to feel that you are not alone) I'd also suggest to watch series of videos of "Unleashed Drivers" youtube channel. These are the only videos with couple of thousands views about first experience in GPRO game.
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#16 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 08:15:40
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 23rd 2020,00:42:11 )
GPRO should make available some very basic tools to new managers and allow older managers to pay after a set amount of time (I think 51 races aka 3 seasons). After all there are already managers paying for info from other sources.. why not channel some of that back into GPRO
Here’s a breakdown:
FREE UPON FIRST 51 RACES (then paid thereafter)
-general setup (not specific and could still be enhance with practice laps and driver input)
-general tire wear 0CT only
-general fuel (no ability to factor in boost laps)
ADDITIONAL PAID FEATURES
-more precise setup
-option to calc tire wear based on CT for Pipis only (aka won’t be very useful for Pro and up)
-option to calc net fastest strategy of the tire compounds/stops needed
so u want to make it a pay and win type of game in lower leagues...imo that would be a drastic decision and would likely kill the game...what will be the fun when u already know all the things what's the fun in that .... to just plug the no.'s in which u have done no roll and watch the race... i fail to imagine how will that be any fun...
and how can u say that ppl who don't want to pay for it after 3 seasons will remain in the game...
how can u even think of giving someone an advantage in terms of performance via money.... and do u think players with a weak foundation like this will progress ... i think not
Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 23rd 2020,00:42:11 )
There are too many game variables to name in one post and new players (if they do not want to take the team route) must learn those variables from ZERO against a community who have in many cases been gathering data for years. In addition, there is some data that can only truly be understood after multiple seasons of gameplay and that’s only IF the manager was proactive enough to gather and save all of their data from day one. Hint: it takes a lot more than just the race analysis ;)
it's not like rookies are competing against elite ... so the difficulty increases as u rise up in the pyramid and so does ur knowledge... also rookie resets everything else other than drivers so as new players can get the basics and field is level there. it's not like u need to know everything in rookie so it's rather stupidity to compare rookies with players who have gathered data and knowledge for years.
Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 23rd 2020,00:42:11 )
Nobody will win Elite with these tools but it will give new managers a baseline that is standard across the board and will allow them to get about answering the even more complicated subjects including driver attributes and training, staff and facilities, sponsor negotiations, car wear and car levels, PHA, technical directors, testing, tyre suppliers, driver energy etc. etc. etc.
but it will create an uneven field for ppl who want to pay for it and who don't .... and btw games have created a guide for newbies and have a mentor system too - although a little flawed - , newbie forums where you can ask your doubts.also in GPRO discord server there are some dedicated channels to this. there are many ppl's who helps new players from my personal experience i got help from a manger who is in elite ryt now he provided me the right direction and several others helped me and asked to PM them if i need to when i asked somethings on forums... the thing that needs to be done is to make them aware of these resources.... when a toddler is falling again and again when trying to walk is you help them by holding hands for a while .... carrying them in your arms and walking is stupidity.
i won't quote any of your further statement but the yeah how hard do u think it is to clear rookie and ama. if u are aware of these resources... the thing needed is awareness and not spoon feeding ... and once u are through rookie and settled in ama. for nice u can find like minded ppl and form/join team to achieve what you want...
tbh i was expecting in the last line that it was a joke but.......
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#17 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 08:46:54
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As a Racing Team, that every account is, some info should be retained and aggregated over every race and season and not only if the owner of the account remembers to or has the ability to save the data, or pays and thus can access some or all of it.
Have more basic info per account saved so the manager has access to it in a better way is a good first start towards helping new managers getting further faster.
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#18 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 09:30:38 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 09:39:33 kim tarafından: Jukka Sireni)
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The game on lower levels is already sort of pay-to-win. People are just paying for someone else. But still, I don't think GPRO should start offering paid helps. But it's tricky and there are no perfect solutions.
What I would like to see to revive FOBY is that
1) Ban all spiders (maybe GO could be allowed)
2) Make an easier interface to study and load historical data (supporter feature)
3) Make totally new, more complicated formulas (current ones are usually linear, but there are nicer functions available)
4) Give a rough version of formulas out in a form of an ingame calculator/helper
But that would be a drastic change, and I don't know if we need that. I would have loved that as a player, though.
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#19 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 11:09:30
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,09:30:38 ) Give a rough version of formulas out in a form of an ingame calculator/helper
Perhaps I'm misreading but I think Jukka has said what I tried to say but much more simply and without the paid features (which I can now see why would be flawed). Just some sort of a more readily available and guided starting off point.
I will add that my experience early on seems to have differed from many which may be why I think the way I do. I have always been a visual/arts person rather than maths and sciences. When I came to GPRO the general atmosphere was even more FOBY at the time and people made you to be an idiot if you didn't know code or maths that to them seemed basic (at least in my experience)
Early on a manager did eventually email me a very basic tyre/fuel calc (which was still off by 5%!) and it made a big improvement in my results. This motivated me to spend a lot more time understanding and refining the formulas I saw as well as layout of this excel sheet. Then applied that to more projects of my own and over time grew to enjoy the challenges of this game even if not through strictly FOBY at the beginning.
I think there are many managers with a similar path and I truly do not see it as problematic if we can give more managers a shot at this game who might otherwise feel outcast.
If someone asks me "what does yoga training do" I will tell them exactly what it does because I do not believe the "what" is at the heart and soul of this game but the "why" and "how". Those two understandings cannot be force fed, they come down to a player's analysis, intuition, and long term planning.
I just don't see it that there is one prescribed way to go about learning this game- learning has never been the same for all people in any topic :)
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#20 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 11:14:11 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 11:33:09 kim tarafından: Ivan Silva)
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 23rd 2020,00:42:11 )
FREE UPON FIRST 51 RACES (then paid thereafter)
-general setup (not specific and could still be enhance with practice laps and driver input)
-general tire wear 0CT only
-general fuel (no ability to factor in boost laps)
ADDITIONAL PAID FEATURES
-more precise setup
-option to calc tire wear based on CT for Pipis only (aka won’t be very useful for Pro and up)
-option to calc net fastest strategy of the tire compounds/stops neede
Why would i pay for something i can get free online?
*hints for GPRO *poof**
• Do not attempt to circumvent posting about, or linking to, blacklisted sites
Edit 2: apologies @Vlad, i was not aware it was blacklisted to be honest.
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#21 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 12:27:15
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,09:30:38 ) 1) Ban all spiders (maybe GO could be allowed)
This is something that I'm actually questionning since a few days: what about having an official API with our credentials (so, not accessible for the public), so we can get the data that only GPRO can share?
It'll reduce the load charges on the server (even if I think that it isn't that much charged), and it can help everyone making their own tool, without necessarily having programming skills. I mean, if you know how to read the data, you have an idea of what to do. Sort of.
About the game calculators, I don't have anything else to add, everything was already said.
The only calculator I can see to be added would be a financial planning, where the manager can input almost every costs and gains made before/after every race. There isn't anything FOBY with it, since every dollar is logged in your Economy History, and unless I'm wrong, it's a management game where money is (the most) important, right? :)
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#22 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 12:48:20
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,09:30:38 ) 2) Make an easier interface to study and load historical data (supporter feature)
Start with the basics, the downloadable race report doesn't even contain everything you need to calculate important "things"!
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,09:30:38 ) 3) Make totally new, more complicated formulas (current ones are usually linear, but there are nicer functions available)
Absolutely no. Do you want a game for mathematicians, or a game for F1 fans? The learning curve is already too steep and you propose to fix this by making it so steep that no one understands it? It's playing with fire, if it works then good old fashioned observation and judgement will become the norm, and level the playing field. However, as soon as the boffins crack the new formula we are back to square one, only now there's only 0.1% FOBYing instead of 1% (or whatever the correct amount is)
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My suggestion is that new players are given free test laps in their first season. These dont incur car wear, and can't be used to develop the driver or car. Think of it as "young driver tests" but for "young managers" (relatively speaking!!)
This could be abused by DA's but that's not really my problem now is it :)
Additionally, mentoring should focus on teaching the correct way to gather meaningful data. The biggest challenge I found was being able to compare one track to another, when the car, driver, weather is changing.
Finally, the other weakness is time. Do you think someone is happy to spend 1 month gathering data that may/may not be useful, meanwhile they are making mistakes and not leaving rookie, then wait 1 more month for their next try? Sure they can join a team and figure things out collectively, but the likelihood is they
a) join a team that has a stolen tool and they just use it
b) go it alone, get fed up, and quit
Ultimately it depends what kind of audience GPRO wants. You can go for anoraks with their calculators, which is a small portion of the market for an F1 manager game, you can go for a stupid pick up and play game (like Motorsport manager) which is unsatisfying easy or... you can get it right, the balance. It's not easy to get right and you'll piss off plenty of anoraks :)
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+1 to the idea of ingame financial planner :)
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#24 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 13:04:24
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ November 23rd 2020,12:48:20 )
Absolutely no. Do you want a game for mathematicians, or a game for F1 fans? The learning curve is already too steep and you propose to fix this by making it so steep that no one understands it? It's playing with fire, if it works then good old fashioned observation and judgement will become the norm, and level the playing field. However, as soon as the boffins crack the new formula we are back to square one, only now there's only 0.1% FOBYing instead of 1% (or whatever the correct amount is)
So you kind of ignored my 4th point?
Currently, there is a huge gap depending on whether you are spoonfed the formulas, or find them from google and are willing to give your account details there. My idea would lessen that gap, not make it bigger.
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#25 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 13:23:25
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Formulas won't give you what you need unless you have your own data for track and reverse engineer it to make adjustments for a particular track.
Even after collecting data for so mamy seasons and trying to fit it in formulas i still face little problems here and there for some Things which i found by formulas.
So making the formulas difficult so we have different log/exponential/integral functions will even discourage current members i feel.
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#26 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 13:25:20 (son değiştirilme 23 Kas 2020, 13:27:10 kim tarafından: Chris Shaw)
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,13:04:24 ) So you kind of ignored my 4th point?
No strong opinion on point 4 either way. At a push, to be cynical I'd say it admits defeat if you have to give players something to use as a starting point, and as a casual F1 fan coming to the game the first time I'd be a little concerned if I'm welcomed to the game by being given a list of mathematical formula. It'd be a solution, perhaps not the right one.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,13:04:24 ) Currently, there is a huge gap depending on whether you are spoonfed the formulas, or find them from google and are willing to give your account details there. My idea would lessen that gap, not make it bigger.
Sounds like we agree on the problem but not the solution. But it's not really important what I think, or you think, or what any one person thinks. Perhaps the actual solution is to form some kind of working group capturing a wide range of managers, old and new, from a variety of backgrounds to find a way to make the game better for all. Just trying to think "if I owned a game like GPRO (lol) what would I do next?"
Edit - I also ignored point 1 as again, I have no strong opinion on spiders. If you made a game that is so reliant on correct predictions then shouldn't you expect 3rd parties to take advantage of that? You say it yourself, the solution is to lessen the advantage, just can't say I agree with the "how" you do that.
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#27 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 13:27:58
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ November 23rd 2020,13:25:20 ) Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,13:04:24 )
So you kind of ignored my 4th point?
No strong opinion on point 4 either way. At a push, to be cynical I'd say it admits defeat if you have to give players something to use as a starting point, and as a casual F1 fan coming to the game the first time I'd be a little concerned if I'm welcomed to the game by being given a list of mathematical formula. It'd be a solution, perhaps not the right one.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 23rd 2020,13:04:24 )
Currently, there is a huge gap depending on whether you are spoonfed the formulas, or find them from google and are willing to give your account details there. My idea would lessen that gap, not make it bigger.
Sounds like we agree on the problem but not the solution. But it's not really important what I think, or you think, or what any one person thinks. Perhaps the actual solution is to form some kind of working group capturing a wide range of managers, old and new, from a variety of backgrounds to find a way to make the game better for all. Just trying to think "if I owned a game like GPRO (lol) what would I do next?"
A working group is difficult. You need to find people impartial. Some of the reason I believe Jukka doesn't play the game.
The idea has merit and I believe there was an old group. Maybe there is still one. Illuminati of GPRO
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#28 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 13:47:53
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Quote ( Chris Shaw @ November 23rd 2020,13:25:20 ) No strong opinion on point 4 either way. At a push, to be cynical I'd say it admits defeat if you have to give players something to use as a starting point, and as a casual F1 fan coming to the game the first time I'd be a little concerned if I'm welcomed to the game by being given a list of mathematical formula. It'd be a solution, perhaps not the right one.
I was more thinking of having a some kind of "race engineer" saying to you that "I think softs will last 20 laps", than a formula. The race engineer suggestion formula wouldn't even need to be shown anywhere, but the idea would be that with some safety margin, you could do with it, but you would still get some benefit from FOBYing.
Of course, the thing with FOBY is that the information will eventually spread anyway, and someone can even start selling it. But with spider ban, it might go more back to teams working themselves instead of a spider collecting family team or total strangers' data.
But well, I am a mathematician and a data analyst, so I am biased.
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#29 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 13:58:55
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Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 23rd 2020,13:23:25 ) Formulas won't give you what you need unless you have your own data for track and reverse engineer it to make adjustments for a particular track.
Even after collecting data for so many seasons and trying to fit it in formulas i still face little problems here and there for some Things which i found by formulas.
So making the formulas difficult so we have different log/exponential/integral functions will even discourage current members i feel.
if ur style is more based/inclined towards data referring or data fitting in equations then I don't understand why u oppose making new formulas. making it more difficult will make the previous data not useful off course but everyone will be in the level field again and it will be fun for many managers to figure it out again. don't know why is hesitation about this
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#30 Yayınlanma zamanı: 23 Kas 2020, 17:40:32
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Quote ( Ankit Jakhar @ November 23rd 2020,13:58:55 ) Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 23rd 2020,13:23:25 )
Formulas won't give you what you need unless you have your own data for track and reverse engineer it to make adjustments for a particular track.
Even after collecting data for so many seasons and trying to fit it in formulas i still face little problems here and there for some Things which i found by formulas.
So making the formulas difficult so we have different log/exponential/integral functions will even discourage current members i feel.
if ur style is more based/inclined towards data referring or data fitting in equations then I don't understand why u oppose making new formulas. making it more difficult will make the previous data not useful off course but everyone will be in the level field again and it will be fun for many managers to figure it out again. don't know why is hesitation about this
At this point of time if such change takes place then probably it will take out the motivation for me or some other players to continue in the game .When i was young and was in school ,i had enough time to do all this analysis ,trying to find formulas and all ,modifying them ,analyzing data .Along with it i had so much time that i used to post a lot in forums and even play many silly games and win them .But today i don't have that much i returned to just play ,i muted the silly games forum so they don't attract me .If things completely change probably i will retire again and return only when i can spend more than 2 hours per race
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